Discussion:
More complex numbers than reals?
(too old to reply)
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-09 05:24:15 UTC
Permalink
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real has
its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each real
there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real with a
non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid? What do
you think?
FromTheRafters
2024-07-09 10:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real has its
y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each real there is an
infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real with a non-zero y axis?
Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid? What do you think?
In a sense there are 'more' since the reals are all on the x axis line
whereas the 2D R x R space is filled with complex numbers. R is
contained in C. In another sense they are the same size set, Q being
basically R by R in the same sense as Q being Z by Z).

Are there any other sizes of sets between countable Q and uncountable
R? How about between uncountable R and uncountable C?
FromTheRafters
2024-07-09 10:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by FromTheRafters
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real has
its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each real there
is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real with a non-zero
y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid? What do you think?
Corrected.
Post by FromTheRafters
In a sense there are 'more' since the reals are all on the x axis line
whereas the 2D R x R space is filled with complex numbers. R is contained in
C. In another sense they are the same size set, C being basically R by R in
the same sense as Q being Z by Z).
Are there any other sizes of sets between countable Q and uncountable R? How
about between uncountable R and uncountable C?
Alan Mackenzie
2024-07-09 18:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by FromTheRafters
In a sense there are 'more' since the reals are all on the x axis line
whereas the 2D R x R space is filled with complex numbers. R is
contained in C. In another sense they are the same size set, C being
basically R by R in the same sense as Q being Z by Z).
Are there any other sizes of sets between countable Q and uncountable
R?
That is the Continuum Hypothesis, that asserts there are none. It has
been shown that neither CH nor its negation can be proven in ZFC. (But
don't ask me for the proof!)
Post by FromTheRafters
How about between uncountable R and uncountable C?
These sets have the same cardinality, so no.
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-09 19:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by FromTheRafters
Post by FromTheRafters
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
Corrected.
Post by FromTheRafters
In a sense there are 'more' since the reals are all on the x axis line
whereas the 2D R x R space is filled with complex numbers. R is
contained in C. In another sense they are the same size set, C being
basically R by R in the same sense as Q being Z by Z).
Are there any other sizes of sets between countable Q and uncountable
R? How about between uncountable R and uncountable C?
Seems to boil down to:

Is uncountable infinity the same "size", as any other uncountable
infinity? Say reals vs. complex numbers...
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-09 19:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by FromTheRafters
Post by FromTheRafters
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any
real with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little
stupid? What do you think?
Corrected.
Post by FromTheRafters
In a sense there are 'more' since the reals are all on the x axis
line whereas the 2D R x R space is filled with complex numbers. R is
contained in C. In another sense they are the same size set, C being
basically R by R in the same sense as Q being Z by Z).
Are there any other sizes of sets between countable Q and uncountable
R? How about between uncountable R and uncountable C?
Is uncountable infinity the same "size", as any other uncountable
infinity? Say reals vs. complex numbers...
This is where I like to ponder on so-called, density of infinity. The
reals are "denser" than the naturals... Agreed? The complex numbers seem
denser than the reals. Oh well, that is in my mind for some damn reason.

:^)
Moebius
2024-07-09 22:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Is uncountable infinity the same "size", as any other uncountable
infinity? Say reals vs. complex numbers...
Nope.

IR and Q do have the same "size", since card(IR) = card(Q).

But there are "larger infinities" than just card(IR) = card(Q) = c.
(There’s a whole hierarchy of them, in fact.)

For example, P(IR) (i.e. {X: X c IR}.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number
Moebius
2024-07-09 22:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Is uncountable infinity the same "size", as any other uncountable
infinity? Say reals vs. complex numbers...
Nope.

IR and C do have the same "size", since card(IR) = card(C).

But there are "larger infinities" than just card(IR) = card(C) = c.
(There’s a whole hierarchy of them, in fact.)

For example, P(IR) (i.e. {X: X c IR}.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number
Ben Bacarisse
2024-07-09 12:37:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real has
its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each real there
is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real with a non-zero
y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid? What do you think?
You quite correctly put "more" in scare quote because it's not clear, at
first glance, what it means in cases like this.

A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you. So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?

(Obviously, some mathematicians have already come up with a meaning that
is of use to them, but I want to see if you are interesting in thinking
mathematically or whether you just want "the answer".)
--
Ben.
WM
2024-07-09 16:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.

Regards, WM
Ben Bacarisse
2024-07-09 17:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition. I think he's cleverer than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
--
Ben.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-09 19:11:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition. I think he's cleverer than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
I was just thinking that there seems to be "more" reals than natural
numbers. Every natural number is a real, but not all reals are natural
numbers.

So, wrt the complex. Well... Every complex number has a x, or real
component. However, not every real has a y, or imaginary component...

Fair enough? Or still crap? ;^o
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-09 19:17:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more".  Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
  So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition.  I think he's cleverer than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
I was just thinking that there seems to be "more" reals than natural
numbers. Every natural number is a real, but not all reals are natural
numbers.
So, wrt the complex. Well... Every complex number has a x, or real
component. However, not every real has a y, or imaginary component...
To refine it... NO Real has a y, or imaginary component. The complex
numbers do. So, can be thought of as being more dense? Or space filling
a 2d plane? Reals are 1d. Is 2d "denser" than 1d? Or is that the wrong
way to think about it? Thanks.
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Fair enough? Or still crap? ;^o
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-09 21:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more".  Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
  So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition.  I think he's cleverer than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
I was just thinking that there seems to be "more" reals than natural
numbers. Every natural number is a real, but not all reals are natural
numbers.
So, wrt the complex. Well... Every complex number has a x, or real
component. However, not every real has a y, or imaginary component...
To refine it... NO Real has a y, or imaginary component. The complex
numbers do. So, can be thought of as being more dense? Or space filling
a 2d plane? Reals are 1d. Is 2d "denser" than 1d?
The fact that n-ary data can be stored in 1-ary data seems to suggest
that the reals are just as dense as the complex numbers? Fair enough?
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Or is that the wrong
way to think about it? Thanks.
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Fair enough? Or still crap? ;^o
FromTheRafters
2024-07-09 22:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition. I think he's cleverer than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
I was just thinking that there seems to be "more" reals than natural numbers.
Every natural number is a real, but not all reals are natural numbers.
Seems is a funny word. Does there not 'seem' to be 'more' naturals than
primes? Intuition fails, these sets are of the same cardinality.
So, wrt the complex. Well... Every complex number has a x, or real component.
However, not every real has a y, or imaginary component...
Fair enough? Or still crap? ;^o
See above.
Ben Bacarisse
2024-07-09 23:45:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition. I think he's cleverer than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
I was just thinking that there seems to be "more" reals than natural
numbers. Every natural number is a real, but not all reals are natural
numbers.
You are repeating yourself. What do you mean by "more"? Can you think
if a general rule -- a test maybe -- that could be applied to any two
set to find one which has more elements?
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
So, wrt the complex. Well... Every complex number has a x, or real
component. However, not every real has a y, or imaginary component...
Fair enough? Or still crap? ;^o
So you are using WM's definition based on subsets? That's a shame. WM
is not a reasonable person to agree with!

One consequence is that you can't say if the set of even numbers has
more or fewer elements than {1,3,5} because {1,3,5} is not a subset of
the even numbers, and the set of even numbers is not a subset of
{1,3,5}. They just can't be compared using your (and WM's) notion of
"more".
--
Ben.
WM
2024-07-10 16:14:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition. I think he's cleverer than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
I was just thinking that there seems to be "more" reals than natural
numbers. Every natural number is a real, but not all reals are natural
numbers.
You are repeating yourself. What do you mean by "more"? Can you think
if a general rule -- a test maybe -- that could be applied to any two
set to find one which has more elements?
No rule is better than a foolish rule, if it yields nonsense like Cantor's
"bijections".
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
So, wrt the complex. Well... Every complex number has a x, or real
component. However, not every real has a y, or imaginary component...
Fair enough? Or still crap? ;^o
So you are using WM's definition based on subsets? That's a shame.
It is a reliable rule.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
One consequence is that you can't say if the set of even numbers has
more or fewer elements than {1,3,5} because {1,3,5} is not a subset of
the even numbers, and the set of even numbers is not a subset of
{1,3,5}. They just can't be compared using your (and WM's) notion of
"more".
There are further rules. Every finite set has less elements than an
infinite set. The set of rational numbers has 2|N|^2 + 1 elements. The set
of real numbers is much larger than the set of rational numbers (but not
because of Cantor's nonsense).

Regards, WM
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-10 21:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by WM
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more".  Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
  So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition.  I think he's cleverer
than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
I was just thinking that there seems to be "more" reals than natural
numbers. Every natural number is a real, but not all reals are natural
numbers.
You are repeating yourself.  What do you mean by "more"?  Can you think
if a general rule -- a test maybe -- that could be applied to any two
set to find one which has more elements?
No rule is better than a foolish rule, if it yields nonsense like
Cantor's "bijections".
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
So, wrt the complex. Well... Every complex number has a x, or real
component. However, not every real has a y, or imaginary component...
Fair enough? Or still crap? ;^o
So you are using WM's definition based on subsets?  That's a shame.
It is a reliable rule.
One consequence is that you can't say if the set of even numbers has
more or fewer elements than {1,3,5} because {1,3,5} is not a subset of
the even numbers, and the set of even numbers is not a subset of
{1,3,5}.  They just can't be compared using your (and WM's) notion of
"more".
There are further rules. Every finite set has less elements than an
infinite set.
What about an infinite number of finite sets? Say:

{ 1 }, { 1, 2 }, { 1, 2, 3 }, { 1, 2, 3, 4 }, ...
Post by WM
The set of rational numbers has 2|N|^2 + 1 elements. The
set of real numbers is much larger than the set of rational numbers (but
not because of Cantor's nonsense).
Regards, WM
Ben Bacarisse
2024-07-10 23:47:28 UTC
Permalink
WM <***@tha.de> writes:
(AKA Dr. Wolfgang Mückenheim or Mueckenheim who teaches "Geschichte des
Unendlichen" at Hochschule Augsburg.)
Post by WM
No rule is better than a foolish rule, if it yields nonsense like Cantor's
"bijections".
Is that why you still can't define set membership, difference and
equality in WMaths such that you could prove one of the most surprising
results of WMaths: that sets E and P exist such that E in P and P \ {E}
= P?
--
Ben.
Moebius
2024-07-10 23:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bacarisse
(AKA Dr. Wolfgang Mückenheim or Mueckenheim who teaches "Geschichte des
Unendlichen" at [Technische] Hochschule Augsburg.)
Post by WM
No rule is better than a foolish rule, if it yields nonsense like Cantor's
"bijections".
Is that why you still can't define set membership, difference and
equality in WMaths such that you could prove one of the most surprising
results of WMaths: that sets E and P exist such that E in P and P \ {E}
= P?
:-) Good one!
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-10 21:23:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition. I think he's cleverer than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
I was just thinking that there seems to be "more" reals than natural
numbers. Every natural number is a real, but not all reals are natural
numbers.
You are repeating yourself. What do you mean by "more"? Can you think
if a general rule -- a test maybe -- that could be applied to any two
set to find one which has more elements?
natural numbers: 1, 2, 3, ...

Well, it missed an infinite number of reals between 1 and 2. So, the
reals are denser than the naturals. Fair enough? It just seems to have
"more", so to speak. Perhaps using the word "more" is just wrong.
However, the density of an infinity makes sense to me. Not sure why, it
just does...
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
So, wrt the complex. Well... Every complex number has a x, or real
component. However, not every real has a y, or imaginary component...
Fair enough? Or still crap? ;^o
So you are using WM's definition based on subsets? That's a shame. WM
is not a reasonable person to agree with!
One consequence is that you can't say if the set of even numbers has
more or fewer elements than {1,3,5} because {1,3,5} is not a subset of
the even numbers, and the set of even numbers is not a subset of
{1,3,5}. They just can't be compared using your (and WM's) notion of
"more".
The set of evens and odds has an infinite number of elements. Just like
the set of naturals.
Moebius
2024-07-10 21:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Well, it missed an infinite number of reals between 1 and 2. So, the
reals are denser than the naturals. Fair enough?
In a certain sense, yes.

On the other hand, the rational numbers are "denser than the naturals"
too (in this sense). Still, the set of rational numbers has the same
"size" as the set of natural numbers.

Man, try to comprehend that once and for all. :-P

(Mückenheim never succeeded concerning this point. Please try to avoid
this rabbit hole.)
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
It just seems to have "more", so to speak.
Exactly!

The real numbers actually do, while the rational numbers don't.
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Perhaps using the word "more" is just wrong.
EXACTLY. Well, it's certainly "misleading" when dealing with INFIITE SETS!

That's the very point Mückenheim can't comprehend.
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
However, the density of an infinity makes sense to me. Not sure why, it
just does...
It does.

Hint: Between any two (different) rational or real numbers there's
another rational / real number.

That's not the case for natural numbers. They are not "dense".
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
The set of evens and odds has an [countably] infinite number of elements. Just like
the set of naturals.
Exactly.

Thats why we accept (in set theory) that these sets have "the same
size". (Of course, this is by convention. But so what?)
Ben Bacarisse
2024-07-10 23:53:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition. I think he's cleverer than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
I was just thinking that there seems to be "more" reals than natural
numbers. Every natural number is a real, but not all reals are natural
numbers.
You are repeating yourself. What do you mean by "more"? Can you think
if a general rule -- a test maybe -- that could be applied to any two
set to find one which has more elements?
natural numbers: 1, 2, 3, ...
Well, it missed an infinite number of reals between 1 and 2. So, the reals
are denser than the naturals. Fair enough? It just seems to have "more", so
to speak. Perhaps using the word "more" is just wrong. However, the density
of an infinity makes sense to me. Not sure why, it just does...
I am trying to get you to come up with a definition. If it is all about
"missing" things then you can't compare the sizes of sets like {a,b,c}
and {3,4,5} as both "miss" all of the members of the others.
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
So, wrt the complex. Well... Every complex number has a x, or real
component. However, not every real has a y, or imaginary component...
Fair enough? Or still crap? ;^o
So you are using WM's definition based on subsets? That's a shame. WM
is not a reasonable person to agree with!
One consequence is that you can't say if the set of even numbers has
more or fewer elements than {1,3,5} because {1,3,5} is not a subset of
the even numbers, and the set of even numbers is not a subset of
{1,3,5}. They just can't be compared using your (and WM's) notion of
"more".
The set of evens and odds has an infinite number of elements. Just like the
set of naturals.
This sentence has nothing to do with what I wrote. The set of evens and
the set {1,3,5} have no elements in common. Both "miss out" all of the
elements of the other. Which has "more" elements and why? Can you
generalise to come up with a rule of |X| > |Y| if and only if ...?
--
Ben.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-11 00:16:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition. I think he's cleverer than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
I was just thinking that there seems to be "more" reals than natural
numbers. Every natural number is a real, but not all reals are natural
numbers.
You are repeating yourself. What do you mean by "more"? Can you think
if a general rule -- a test maybe -- that could be applied to any two
set to find one which has more elements?
natural numbers: 1, 2, 3, ...
Well, it missed an infinite number of reals between 1 and 2. So, the reals
are denser than the naturals. Fair enough? It just seems to have "more", so
to speak. Perhaps using the word "more" is just wrong. However, the density
of an infinity makes sense to me. Not sure why, it just does...
I am trying to get you to come up with a definition. If it is all about
"missing" things then you can't compare the sizes of sets like {a,b,c}
and {3,4,5} as both "miss" all of the members of the others.
{a, b, c} vs { 3, 4, 5 }

Both have the same number of elements, both have a monotonically
increasing value wrt its elements wrt, ect...

Say a + 1 = b, b + 1 = c, c + 1 = d

We know that 3 + 1 = 4, 4 + 1 = 5 and 5 + 1 = 6

So, {a, b, c} and {3, 4, 5} share some interesting things, in a strange
sense, so to speak.

{ a + 1 = b, b + 1 = c, c + 1 = d, ... }

{ 3 + 1 = 4, 4 + 1 = 5, 5 + 1 = 6, ... }

I see some relevant similarities between them. They are both infinite
for sure. :^)

A side note:

WM would think that d and 6 are dark as in {a, b, c} does not show d,
and { 3, 4, 5 } does not show 6.

Humm... ;^o
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
So, wrt the complex. Well... Every complex number has a x, or real
component. However, not every real has a y, or imaginary component...
Fair enough? Or still crap? ;^o
So you are using WM's definition based on subsets? That's a shame. WM
is not a reasonable person to agree with!
One consequence is that you can't say if the set of even numbers has
more or fewer elements than {1,3,5} because {1,3,5} is not a subset of
the even numbers, and the set of even numbers is not a subset of
{1,3,5}. They just can't be compared using your (and WM's) notion of
"more".
The set of evens and odds has an infinite number of elements. Just like the
set of naturals.
This sentence has nothing to do with what I wrote. The set of evens and
the set {1,3,5} have no elements in common. Both "miss out" all of the
elements of the other. Which has "more" elements and why? Can you
generalise to come up with a rule of |X| > |Y| if and only if ...?
Moebius
2024-07-11 00:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
{a, b, c} vs { 3, 4, 5 }
Both have the same number of elements, [...]
HOW do you know that? Please define (for any sets A, B):

A and B /have the same number of elements/ iff ___________________ .

(i.e. fill out the blanks). :-)

Hint: That's what Ben Bacarisse is asking for.

Sure, it's "obvious" for us. But how would you define "have the same
number of elements" (in mathematical terms) such that it can be DEDUCED
(!) für certain sets A and B?

________________________________________

Ok, I'm slighty vicious now... :-)

If a = b = c, {a, b, c} still has "the same number of elements" as {3,
4, 5 }? :-P
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-11 00:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
{a, b, c} vs { 3, 4, 5 }
Both have the same number of elements, [...]
    A and B /have the same number of elements/ iff ___________________ .
(i.e. fill out the blanks). :-)
Hint: That's what Ben Bacarisse is asking for.
Sure, it's "obvious" for us. But how would you define "have the same
number of elements" (in mathematical terms) such that it can be DEDUCED
(!) für certain sets A and B?
________________________________________
Ok, I'm slighty vicious now... :-)
If a = b = c, {a, b, c} still has "the same number of elements" as {3,
4, 5 }? :-P
I see {a, b, c} and {3, 4, 5} and think three elements.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-11 00:29:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
{a, b, c} vs { 3, 4, 5 }
Both have the same number of elements, [...]
     A and B /have the same number of elements/ iff ___________________ .
(i.e. fill out the blanks). :-)
Hint: That's what Ben Bacarisse is asking for.
Sure, it's "obvious" for us. But how would you define "have the same
number of elements" (in mathematical terms) such that it can be
DEDUCED (!) für certain sets A and B?
________________________________________
Ok, I'm slighty vicious now... :-)
If a = b = c, {a, b, c} still has "the same number of elements" as {3,
4, 5 }? :-P
I see {a, b, c} and {3, 4, 5} and think three elements.
Then I start to examine how the elements are different and their
potential similarities, if any. For some reason, { a, b, c } and { 3, 4,
5 } makes me think of monotonically increasing.
Moebius
2024-07-11 00:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
{a, b, c} vs { 3, 4, 5 }
Both have the same number of elements, [...]
     A and B /have the same number of elements/ iff ___________________ .
(i.e. fill out the blanks). :-)
Hint: That's what Ben Bacarisse is asking for.
Sure, it's "obvious" for us. But how would you define "have the same
number of elements" (in mathematical terms) such that it can be
DEDUCED (!) für certain sets A and B?
________________________________________
Ok, I'm slighty vicious now... :-)
If a = b = c, {a, b, c} still has "the same number of elements" as {3,
4, 5 }? :-P
I see {a, b, c} and {3, 4, 5} and think three elements.
Even if a = b = c = 1?

C'mon man! :-P
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-11 00:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
{a, b, c} vs { 3, 4, 5 }
Both have the same number of elements, [...]
     A and B /have the same number of elements/ iff
___________________ .
(i.e. fill out the blanks). :-)
Hint: That's what Ben Bacarisse is asking for.
Sure, it's "obvious" for us. But how would you define "have the same
number of elements" (in mathematical terms) such that it can be
DEDUCED (!) für certain sets A and B?
________________________________________
Ok, I'm slighty vicious now... :-)
If a = b = c, {a, b, c} still has "the same number of elements" as
{3, 4, 5 }? :-P
I see {a, b, c} and {3, 4, 5} and think three elements.
Even if a = b = c = 1?
C'mon man! :-P
Well, In my programming mind, { a, b, c } and { 3, 4, 5 } have the same
number of elements. Is this bad?
Ben Bacarisse
2024-07-11 00:35:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
{a, b, c} vs { 3, 4, 5 }
Both have the same number of elements, [...]
     A and B /have the same number of elements/ iff ___________________ .
(i.e. fill out the blanks). :-)
Hint: That's what Ben Bacarisse is asking for.
Sure, it's "obvious" for us. But how would you define "have the same
number of elements" (in mathematical terms) such that it can be DEDUCED
(!) für certain sets A and B?
________________________________________
Ok, I'm slighty vicious now... :-)
If a = b = c, {a, b, c} still has "the same number of elements" as {3,
4, 5 }? :-P
I see {a, b, c} and {3, 4, 5} and think three elements.
Even if a = b = c = 1?
C'mon man! :-P
Please, that's a red herring, and you know it! No where did I say that
a, b and c stood for anything (i.e. that they might be variables in the
maths sense). I this sort of context they are just distinct symbols.
--
Ben.
Moebius
2024-07-11 00:43:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
{a, b, c} vs { 3, 4, 5 }
Both have the same number of elements, [...]
     A and B /have the same number of elements/ iff ___________________ .
(i.e. fill out the blanks). :-)
Hint: That's what Ben Bacarisse is asking for.
Sure, it's "obvious" for us. But how would you define "have the same
number of elements" (in mathematical terms) such that it can be DEDUCED
(!) für certain sets A and B?
________________________________________
Ok, I'm slighty vicious now... :-)
If a = b = c, {a, b, c} still has "the same number of elements" as {3,
4, 5 }? :-P
I see {a, b, c} and {3, 4, 5} and think three elements.
Even if a = b = c = 1?
C'mon man! :-P
Please, that's a red herring, and you know it! No where did I say that
a, b and c stood for anything (i.e. that they might be variables in the
maths sense). I this sort of context they are just distinct symbols.
Of course, "a", "b" and "c" are three distinct symols. (Hell!)

But you dont't think that they should DENOTE some mathematical objects
(in a mathematical context)?*)

Huh?!

Are you doing math with symbols without any denotaton? Strange!
(Really.) [I'm sort of clueless now.]

Ok, let's reformulate my statement:

| Even if a = b = c?

Satisfied now?!

_____________________________

*) Say some numbers or wehatever.
Moebius
2024-07-11 00:51:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
| Even if a = b = c?
Satisfied now?!
I didn't know that math excludes denotation of A = denotation of B =
denotation of C if A, B, C are three distinct symbols. (Note that "A".
"B", "C" here are "metavariables", denoting some symbols.)

Is this some sort of "new math" (or crank math)?

Hint: In the context of set theory, any "variables" (or arbitraty names,
terms, etc.) denote/refer to some sets.

If we refer to, say, "{a, b}" (in the context of set theory), either a =
b or a =/= b.

(sigh)
Ben Bacarisse
2024-07-11 00:59:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
{a, b, c} vs { 3, 4, 5 }
Both have the same number of elements, [...]
     A and B /have the same number of elements/ iff ___________________ .
(i.e. fill out the blanks). :-)
Hint: That's what Ben Bacarisse is asking for.
Sure, it's "obvious" for us. But how would you define "have the same
number of elements" (in mathematical terms) such that it can be DEDUCED
(!) für certain sets A and B?
________________________________________
Ok, I'm slighty vicious now... :-)
If a = b = c, {a, b, c} still has "the same number of elements" as {3,
4, 5 }? :-P
I see {a, b, c} and {3, 4, 5} and think three elements.
Even if a = b = c = 1?
C'mon man! :-P
Please, that's a red herring, and you know it! No where did I say that
a, b and c stood for anything (i.e. that they might be variables in the
maths sense). I this sort of context they are just distinct symbols.
Of course, "a", "b" and "c" are three distinct symols. (Hell!)
But you dont't think that they should DENOTE some mathematical objects (in
a mathematical context)?*)
No, not without the context that says they are variables.
Post by Moebius
Huh?!
Are you doing math with symbols without any denotaton? Strange! (Really.)
[I'm sort of clueless now.]
Unless we allow symbols that just denote themselves, the only examples
we can conveniently give will be sets of numbers as, conventionally,
numerals are symbols that denote numbers.
Post by Moebius
| Even if a = b = c?
Satisfied now?!
Not really. We must be able write sets of things that are not numbers
without having to assume they are variables and therefore denote
something. Otherwise we will always have to say a != b != c. And in
this specific example we'd have to say even more since I wanted the two
sets to have no elements in common, so I'd have to have said a, b and c
don't stand for any of the numbers 1, 2 or 3.

I suppose since most people now know more about programming than maths,
I could have used strings:

{ "a", "b", "c" }

but to a mathematician that just looks clumsy and overly specific.
--
Ben.
Moebius
2024-07-11 01:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Am 11.07.2024 um 02:59 schrieb Ben Bacarisse: [nonsense]

Fuck you!

EOD.
Moebius
2024-07-11 00:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Moebius
Ok, I'm slighty vicious now... :-)
If a = b = c, {a, b, c} still has "the same number of elements" as
{3, 4, 5}? :-P
I see {a, b, c} and {3, 4, 5} and think three elements.
Even if a = b = c = 1?
C'mon man! :-P
I'm not joking here!

You know, you may have 3 variables a, b, c with

a = 1 ,
b = 1 ,
c = 1 .

How many entries would a "dictionary" (Python) with keys a, b, c have?

3 or 1?

:-P
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-11 00:48:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Moebius
Ok, I'm slighty vicious now... :-)
If a = b = c, {a, b, c} still has "the same number of elements" as
{3, 4, 5}? :-P
I see {a, b, c} and {3, 4, 5} and think three elements.
Even if a = b = c = 1?
C'mon man! :-P
I'm not joking here!
You know, you may have 3 variables a, b, c with
a = 1 ,
b = 1 ,
c = 1 .
How many entries would a "dictionary" (Python) with keys a, b, c have?
3 or 1?
_ideally_ one. Mapping from a, b or c would go to one.
Ben Bacarisse
2024-07-11 00:46:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition. I think he's cleverer than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
I was just thinking that there seems to be "more" reals than natural
numbers. Every natural number is a real, but not all reals are natural
numbers.
You are repeating yourself. What do you mean by "more"? Can you think
if a general rule -- a test maybe -- that could be applied to any two
set to find one which has more elements?
natural numbers: 1, 2, 3, ...
Well, it missed an infinite number of reals between 1 and 2. So, the reals
are denser than the naturals. Fair enough? It just seems to have "more", so
to speak. Perhaps using the word "more" is just wrong. However, the density
of an infinity makes sense to me. Not sure why, it just does...
I am trying to get you to come up with a definition. If it is all about
"missing" things then you can't compare the sizes of sets like {a,b,c}
and {3,4,5} as both "miss" all of the members of the others.
{a, b, c} vs { 3, 4, 5 }
Both have the same number of elements,
That will fall down for infinite sets unless, by decree, you state that
your meaning of "more" makes all infinite sets have the same number of
elements. You can do that if you want -- the definition is yours -- but
it does not match your initial suspicions. For example, you probably
think, intuitively, that there are "more" reals then integers.
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
both have a monotonically increasing
value wrt its elements wrt, ect...
Now that's an interesting start, more interesting than you probably know
right now. You are tying "more" to the idea of an ordering. But what
happens when there is no obvious first element? For example are there
more reals in (0,1) than in (1,2)? What about (0,1) and (1,3)?
--
Ben.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-11 00:51:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition. I think he's cleverer than
you so he will probably want to be able to say that {1,2,3} has "more"
elements than {4,5}.
I was just thinking that there seems to be "more" reals than natural
numbers. Every natural number is a real, but not all reals are natural
numbers.
You are repeating yourself. What do you mean by "more"? Can you think
if a general rule -- a test maybe -- that could be applied to any two
set to find one which has more elements?
natural numbers: 1, 2, 3, ...
Well, it missed an infinite number of reals between 1 and 2. So, the reals
are denser than the naturals. Fair enough? It just seems to have "more", so
to speak. Perhaps using the word "more" is just wrong. However, the density
of an infinity makes sense to me. Not sure why, it just does...
I am trying to get you to come up with a definition. If it is all about
"missing" things then you can't compare the sizes of sets like {a,b,c}
and {3,4,5} as both "miss" all of the members of the others.
{a, b, c} vs { 3, 4, 5 }
Both have the same number of elements,
That will fall down for infinite sets unless, by decree, you state that
your meaning of "more" makes all infinite sets have the same number of
elements.
What about dropping the word more in favor of density, or granularity of
an infinite set? The reals are denser, or more granular than the
rationals and reals? Crap?
Post by Ben Bacarisse
You can do that if you want -- the definition is yours -- but
it does not match your initial suspicions. For example, you probably
think, intuitively, that there are "more" reals then integers.
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
both have a monotonically increasing
value wrt its elements wrt, ect...
Now that's an interesting start, more interesting than you probably know
right now. You are tying "more" to the idea of an ordering. But what
happens when there is no obvious first element? For example are there
more reals in (0,1) than in (1,2)? What about (0,1) and (1,3)?
Moebius
2024-07-11 01:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
What about dropping the word more in favor of density, or granularity of
an infinite set? The reals are denser, or more granular than the
rationals and naturals?
Yeah, makes sense.
Moebius
2024-07-11 01:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
What about dropping the word more in favor of density, or granularity
of an infinite set? The reals are denser, or more granular than the
rationals and naturals?
Yeah, makes sense.
On the other hand there are (indeed) "more" reals (in a certain sense)
than naturals and/or rationals. :-)

So this "more" allows for more "granularity". :-P
Moebius
2024-07-11 01:13:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
What about dropping the word more in favor of density, or granularity
of an infinite set? The reals are denser, or more granular than the
rationals and naturals?
Just to make that clear, in math we say that the _cardinality_ of IR is
larger than the _cardinality_ of Q or IN.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinality

Read it, man!
Moebius
2024-07-11 01:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
What about dropping the word more in favor of density, or
granularity of an infinite set? The reals are denser, or more
granular than the rationals and naturals?
Just to make that clear, in math we say that the _cardinality_ of IR is
larger than the _cardinality_ of Q or IN.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinality
Read it, man!
"Our intuition gained from finite sets breaks down when dealing with
infinite sets. In the late 19th century Georg Cantor, Gottlob Frege,
Richard Dedekind and others rejected the view that the whole cannot be
the same size as the part. One example of this is Hilbert's paradox of
the Grand Hotel. Indeed, Dedekind defined an infinite set as one that
can be placed into a one-to-one correspondence with a strict subset
(that is, having the same size in Cantor's sense); this notion of
infinity is called Dedekind infinite. Cantor introduced the cardinal
numbers, and showed—according to his bijection-based definition of
size—that some infinite sets are greater than others. The smallest
infinite cardinality is that of the natural numbers (ℵ0)."

Moebius
2024-07-11 00:59:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bacarisse
For example, you probably
think, intuitively, that there are "more" reals then integers.
Which -in a certain sense- is quite true. :-P

Here I agree with my math professor. :-)
WM
2024-07-10 15:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bacarisse
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Let's see if Chris is using that definition. I think he's cleverer than
you
I am satisfied with being cleverer than all who believe that the set of
even numbers has not less elements than the set of all integers.

Regards, WM
FromTheRafters
2024-07-09 17:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Proper subsets do not have all of the elements that are in their
supersets. This is not the same as "less" or fewer elements as it is in
finite sets.
WM
2024-07-10 15:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by FromTheRafters
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Proper subsets do not have all of the elements that are in their
supersets. This is not the same as "less" or fewer elements
It is precisely this. Cantor's bijections are nonsense. They concern only
elements which belong to the first percent of the concerned sets.

Regards, WM
Earle
2024-07-10 00:40:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by WM
Post by Ben Bacarisse
A mathematician, to whom this is a whole new topic, would start by
asking you what you mean by "more". Without that, they could not
possibly answer you.
Good mathematicians could.
Post by Ben Bacarisse
So, what do you mean by "more" when applied to
sets like C and R?
Proper subsets have less elements than their supersets.
Regards, WM
*** Englich Correction:
You mean "fewer" elements....

earle
*
Jim Burns
2024-07-09 16:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals?
It seems so,
every real has its y, or imaginary, component
set to zero.
Therefore
for each real
there is an infinity of infinite embedding's
for it wrt any real with a non-zero y axis?
Fair enough, or really dumb?
A little stupid?
What do you think?
Not stupid, but also not correct.

Galileo asked a similar question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo%27s_paradox

The natural numbers can be mapped 1.to.1 to
the natural.number squares.
In an obvious way.
There is room for all the numbers in the squares.
Thus, there are at least as many squares as numbers.
There aren't more squares than numbers; they fit.

But there are "more" numbers than squares.
Also obviously.

Galileo's resolution was to stop asking that question.

Less obviously,
there are 1.to.1 maps from the complex plane
to the real line,
and not more plane than line.
And also "more" plane than line.

Here's a handwave of one way to do that.
I'm sure there are loose threads dangling,
but I'm also sure they can be tucked in.

Define the stretch.operator 🗚x which interleaves 0s
with the decimal digits of real number x
For x = x₀.x₁x₂x₃...
🗚x = x₀.0x₁0x₂0x₃0...

x+iy ⟼ 10⋅🗚x+🗚y = x₀y₀.x₁y₁x₂y₂x₃y₃...

There isn't "more" plane than line. Not.obviously.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-09 19:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Burns
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals?
It seems so,
every real has its y, or imaginary, component
set to zero.
Therefore
for each real
there is an infinity of infinite embedding's
for it wrt any real with a non-zero y axis?
Fair enough, or really dumb?
A little stupid?
What do you think?
Not stupid, but also not correct.
Galileo asked a similar question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo%27s_paradox
The natural numbers can be mapped 1.to.1 to
 the natural.number squares.
 In an obvious way.
There is room for all the numbers in the squares.
Thus, there are at least as many squares as numbers.
There aren't more squares than numbers; they fit.
But there are "more" numbers than squares.
 Also obviously.
Galileo's resolution was to stop asking that question.
Less obviously,
there are 1.to.1 maps from the complex plane
to the real line,
and not more plane than line.
And also "more" plane than line.
Here's a handwave of one way to do that.
I'm sure there are loose threads dangling,
but I'm also sure they can be tucked in.
Define the stretch.operator 🗚x which interleaves 0s
with the decimal digits of real number x
For x = x₀.x₁x₂x₃...
🗚x = x₀.0x₁0x₂0x₃0...
x+iy ⟼ 10⋅🗚x+🗚y = x₀y₀.x₁y₁x₂y₂x₃y₃...
There isn't "more" plane than line. Not.obviously.
Humm... How about 2d wrt complex numbers can represent "more" data than
1d? Humm... Then I think about storing a 2-ary tree in a 1-ary
data-structure. So, 1d can store 2d data, even n-ary data... So, the 1d
is just as dense as the 2d complex numbers? Uncountable and infinitely
dense.

Thinking out loud here, a so called density factor might be _fun_ to
assign to the naturals vs the rationals, even reals, ect. The density
factor for the naturals is rather poor. For instance, it's missing
infinite infinities, say between 41 and 42... The reals are missing
other "off axis" numbers in the 2d realm, vs the reals 1d realm. Ect... ;^)

Make any sense, or radically moronic?
sobriquet
2024-07-09 19:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real has
its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each real
there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real with a
non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid? What do
you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the complex
plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as well
compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-09 20:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the complex
plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as well
compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
sobriquet
2024-07-09 20:27:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the complex
plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as well
compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?

It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, that means the concept of the number line is nonsense likewise
and we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-09 20:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any
real with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little
stupid? What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the
complex plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as
well compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, that means the concept of the number line is nonsense likewise
and we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
Wrt the sqrt of two. Well, every square already has it in its diagonals,
right?
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-09 20:31:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every
real has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for
each real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt
any real with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A
little stupid? What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the
complex plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as
well compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs,
say, the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an
uncountable infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The
density of the complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already
rather dubious.
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, that means the concept of the number line is nonsense
likewise and we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
Wrt the sqrt of two. Well, every square already has it in its diagonals,
right?
We can create a square using naturals. The sqrt inherently in them, in
all of its infinite glory, right?

1x1, 1x2, 2x2, ect... ;^)

All of the infinite squares have sqrt(2).
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-09 20:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every
real has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for
each real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt
any real with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A
little stupid? What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the
complex plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might
as well compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are?
Or are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs,
say, the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an
uncountable infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The
density of the complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already
rather dubious.
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, that means the concept of the number line is nonsense
likewise and we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
Wrt the sqrt of two. Well, every square already has it in its
diagonals, right?
We can create a square using naturals. The sqrt inherently in them, in
all of its infinite glory, right?
1x1, 1x2, 2x2, ect... ;^)
All of the infinite squares have sqrt(2).
OOPS! Why did I put 1x2! Damn it. NOT a square. Sorry about that non-sense!
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-09 20:33:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every
real has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for
each real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt
any real with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A
little stupid? What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the
complex plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as
well compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs,
say, the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an
uncountable infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The
density of the complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already
rather dubious.
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, that means the concept of the number line is nonsense
likewise and we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
Wrt the sqrt of two. Well, every square already has it in its diagonals,
right?
The sqrt of 2 can scale to any square. Right?
sobriquet
2024-07-09 20:51:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every
real has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for
each real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt
any real with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A
little stupid? What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the
complex plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might
as well compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are?
Or are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs,
say, the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an
uncountable infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The
density of the complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already
rather dubious.
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, that means the concept of the number line is nonsense
likewise and we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
Wrt the sqrt of two. Well, every square already has it in its
diagonals, right?
The sqrt of 2 can scale to any square. Right?
Either spacetime is continuous or it's not. So far it seems things
usually are not continuous (stuff like energy and space can't be
subdivided indefinitely). So it seems reasonable to assume that the
concept of continuity is nonsense.

If spacetime is not continuous, what basis do we have to the concept of
continuity?

You seem to maintain that numbers reside in a special magical realm
where we can take a number and we can split it into two smaller numbers
and we can do that without any limitations and that begs the question
how we are supposed to represent these numbers if the number of digits
gets so large that it exceeds way beyond the number of elementary
particles in the universe.

Are we talking about some sort of simulation of the multiverse here
where we don't run into such issues?
Stefan Ram
2024-07-10 13:11:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
Either spacetime is continuous or it's not.
I wouldn't put it that way. For starters, continuity is something
that's defined for mappings (functions) of topological spaces.
Spacetime isn't a function, it's not even a mathematical object!
So what's the deal with "continuity of spacetime" anyway?
sobriquet
2024-07-10 15:46:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by sobriquet
Either spacetime is continuous or it's not.
I wouldn't put it that way. For starters, continuity is something
that's defined for mappings (functions) of topological spaces.
Spacetime isn't a function, it's not even a mathematical object!
So what's the deal with "continuity of spacetime" anyway?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

"In physics, spacetime is a mathematical model that fuses the three
dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single
four-dimensional continuum."

Quantities like matter and energy initially seemed to be continuous,
since they typically consist of extremely large collections of discrete
elements (like molecules, atoms or particles).
So gradually we came to realize that the concept of a continuous
quantity that can be subdivided indefinitely is unrealistic.

We don't know if this holds as well for time and space, but it might be
that everything in reality that can be quantified ultimately consists of
discrete elements. If that turns out to be the case, that renders
discussions about the concept of continuity irrelevant, because at that
point it seems to be about a concept that only exists in our imagination.
So it's a bit like discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a
pin (assuming that angels don't really exist).
Stefan Ram
2024-07-10 16:26:57 UTC
Permalink
sobriquet <***@yahoo.com> wrote or quoted:
[Spacetime from Wikipedia]
Post by sobriquet
"In physics, spacetime is a mathematical model that fuses the three
Yes, it's a model! And that model usually uses real numbers
for the four dimensions. So we could study the real numbers for
their topological properties. But we would learn something about
physics only to a limited extend, because it's a model, not the
real thing. So, we would learn something about our model. To study
the real world, one needs experimental devices like the LHC.

The model of space as R^3 or spacetime as R^4 is fine for
intermediate orders of magnitude the size of a man. But it
probably is not accurate anymore on a scale very much larger
or very much smaller than that.
Post by sobriquet
Quantities like matter and energy initially seemed to be continuous,
Yes. To the bare eye and hands they seem to be continuous.
Post by sobriquet
since they typically consist of extremely large collections of discrete
elements (like molecules, atoms or particles).
This is also only true on a certain scale. You could look at
a particle. What is it? Is it like a ball with a hard border,
with something continuous inside, or is it a kind of a cloud
with a soft border? Measurements seems to indicate that it
is neither of these two (see books at the end).

The crucial point is: mathematics knows no limits when
decending down the scale: [0,1] is an intervall, but the tiny
[0, 10^(-10)] is also in interval that has topologically the
same properties. In mathematics, you can the go on to study
[0, 10^-(10^10)], and you get to study [0, 10^-(10^10^10)] and you
can dive down as deep as possible and it all makes perfect sense.

But it physics, we need high energy particle accelerators to study
small distances. Maybe we can study distances of 10^-15 m there.
But not very much smaller. Even with future technologies, there will
always be some limit beyond which you cannot study the structure of
the real space-time. So it makes no sense to talk about it as if it
would be a mathematical space like the R^4 (the model) where one
can always go down arbitrarily to any scale (size) one chooses.
Post by sobriquet
So gradually we came to realize that the concept of a continuous
quantity that can be subdivided indefinitely is unrealistic.
The indefinite subdivision is possible mentally and maybe
in mathematical models, but we do not have instruments to
inspect the real world to arbitrary small scales. There is
and will always be a scale below which we cannot see anything.
So, from the POV of physics, it makes no sense to wonder
about something that is not observable and will never be.
Post by sobriquet
We don't know if this holds as well for time and space, but it might be
that everything in reality that can be quantified ultimately consists of
discrete elements. If that turns out to be the case, that renders
discussions about the concept of continuity irrelevant, because at that
point it seems to be about a concept that only exists in our imagination.
So it's a bit like discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a
pin (assuming that angels don't really exist).
To think of space like a kind of a cellular automaton (as
did Zuse and later Wolfram) is satisfying because it's an
explanation by something that seems to be easy to understand,
but currently there is no indication that reality works this
way. Lattice gauge theories are a tool for computations and
deliver some useful results, but they are a model.

To learn more about reality one has to look at reality; it does
not help to look at mathematical models. And when we study
reality, there are certain limits beyond which we cannot pass.

Here are two recommendable popular science books that give
two nice perspectives on contemporary physics:

"Quantum Field Theory, As Simple As Possible" (2023), A. Zee and
"Why String Theory" (2016), Joseph Conlon.
Stefan Ram
2024-07-10 16:45:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
"Why String Theory" (2016), Joseph Conlon.
And this book also has some math content! Read it to learn why Edward
Witten is the only physicist so far who was awarded the Fields Medal.
Stefan Ram
2024-07-10 19:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
But it physics, we need high energy particle accelerators to study
small distances.
(read "But in physics, . . .")

I keep coming across that explanation, but when I actually
needed it, it wasn't front and center in my noggin,
and I couldn't dig it up right away. But check this
out - I stumbled on this quote that sheds some light:

|If we intend to use accelerators as large "microscopes", the
|spatial resolution increases with beam energy. According to
|the de Broglie equation, the relation between momentum p and
|wavelength l of a wave packet is given by l = h/p. Therefore,
|larger momenta correspond to shorter wavelengths and access
|to smaller structures.
(from a PDF file where the author was not given).

So here's the deal: To scope out those itty-bitty details, we
generally need to crank up the juice. It's not just a tech limitation
thing. Once you hit a certain level of teensy-weensy, even if you had
all the energy from the Universe, you still couldn't make out squat.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-10 21:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
Post by sobriquet
Either spacetime is continuous or it's not.
   I wouldn't put it that way. For starters, continuity is something
   that's defined for mappings (functions) of topological spaces.
   Spacetime isn't a function, it's not even a mathematical object!
   So what's the deal with "continuity of spacetime" anyway?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
"In physics, spacetime is a mathematical model that fuses the three
dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single
four-dimensional continuum."
It seems strange to me wrt thinking of time as a dimension. Every
dimension has time, right?
Post by sobriquet
Quantities like matter and energy initially seemed to be continuous,
since they typically consist of extremely large collections of discrete
elements (like molecules, atoms or particles).
So gradually we came to realize that the concept of a continuous
quantity that can be subdivided indefinitely is unrealistic.
We don't know if this holds as well for time and space, but it might be
that everything in reality that can be quantified ultimately consists of
discrete elements. If that turns out to be the case, that renders
discussions about the concept of continuity irrelevant, because at that
point it seems to be about a concept that only exists in our imagination.
So it's a bit like discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a
pin (assuming that angels don't really exist).
Jim Burns
2024-07-10 17:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
Either spacetime is continuous or it's not.
So far it seems things usually are not continuous
(stuff like energy and space can't be subdivided indefinitely).
So it seems reasonable to assume that
the concept of continuity is nonsense.
If spacetime is not continuous,
what basis do we have to the concept of continuity?
Referring to spacetime _sounds like_ physics,
but the rest of what you're saying doesn't match
my own experience with physics.

Baby physicists cut their teeth on
continuous vibrating strings.
And yet, we know that,
at smaller.than.atomic dimensions,
there are no continuous vibrating strings.

Continuous vibrating strings are useful descriptions for
actual guitar strings, actual Tacoma Narrows Bridges.


Is spacetime _actually_ continuous?
We don't think so, because
our current best theories develop problems
at small enough scale.

We expect some so.far.unknown theory
to make itself felt somewhere around
distances = 1 in natural units,
that is, units in which c = G = ℏ = 1,
the Planck length 1.6×10⁻³⁵ meter

That's far smaller than we can currently measure,
although physicists have a proud history of
measuring impossible.to.measure things,
so we'll just have to see what the future brings.

Even if we cleverly measure effects down to 10⁻³⁵m,
continuous spacetime is still a useful description of
all the things it is currently usefully describing,
just as it's still useful to describe a guitar string
as continuous.

If you're trolling, you got me.
I took you seriously.
If you're objecting in good faith,
I don't see what you're objecting to.
Ross Finlayson
2024-07-10 19:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Burns
Post by sobriquet
Either spacetime is continuous or it's not.
So far it seems things usually are not continuous
(stuff like energy and space can't be subdivided indefinitely).
So it seems reasonable to assume that
the concept of continuity is nonsense.
If spacetime is not continuous,
what basis do we have to the concept of continuity?
Referring to spacetime _sounds like_ physics,
but the rest of what you're saying doesn't match
my own experience with physics.
Baby physicists cut their teeth on
continuous vibrating strings.
And yet, we know that,
at smaller.than.atomic dimensions,
there are no continuous vibrating strings.
Continuous vibrating strings are useful descriptions for
actual guitar strings, actual Tacoma Narrows Bridges.
http://youtu.be/KRutAt0FlGA
Is spacetime _actually_ continuous?
We don't think so, because
our current best theories develop problems
at small enough scale.
We expect some so.far.unknown theory
to make itself felt somewhere around
distances = 1 in natural units,
that is, units in which c = G = ℏ = 1,
the Planck length 1.6×10⁻³⁵ meter
That's far smaller than we can currently measure,
although physicists have a proud history of
measuring impossible.to.measure things,
so we'll just have to see what the future brings.
Even if we cleverly measure effects down to 10⁻³⁵m,
continuous spacetime is still a useful description of
all the things it is currently usefully describing,
just as it's still useful to describe a guitar string
as continuous.
If you're trolling, you got me.
I took you seriously.
If you're objecting in good faith,
I don't see what you're objecting to.
Perhaps you've heard of beta decay or muon physics,
or Aspect-type experiments, none of which agree.

If there was a Planck length end-of-infinite-divisbility,
then if there were straight lines and right angles,
the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by the diagonal,
would be ir-rational, so there would be neither metric nor norm,
or one of straight lines and right angles gone missing.

You know, Angstrom's are just about as many orders of
magnitude above as Planck's are below, ..., "atomic scale".

The "trans-Planckian", regime, is what it's called,
sub-atomic, all the way down to the scale of superstrings,
approximately twice as many orders of magnitude smaller
than atoms, as atoms are us.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-10 21:27:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Finlayson
Post by Jim Burns
Post by sobriquet
Either spacetime is continuous or it's not.
So far it seems things usually are not continuous
(stuff like energy and space can't be subdivided indefinitely).
So it seems reasonable to assume that
the concept of continuity is nonsense.
If spacetime is not continuous,
what basis do we have to the concept of continuity?
Referring to spacetime _sounds like_ physics,
but the rest of what you're saying doesn't match
my own experience with physics.
Baby physicists cut their teeth on
continuous vibrating strings.
And yet, we know that,
at smaller.than.atomic dimensions,
there are no continuous vibrating strings.
Continuous vibrating strings are useful descriptions for
actual guitar strings, actual Tacoma Narrows Bridges.
http://youtu.be/KRutAt0FlGA
Is spacetime _actually_ continuous?
We don't think so, because
our current best theories develop problems
at small enough scale.
We expect some so.far.unknown theory
to make itself felt somewhere around
distances = 1 in natural units,
that is, units in which c = G = ℏ = 1,
the Planck length 1.6×10⁻³⁵ meter
That's far smaller than we can currently measure,
although physicists have a proud history of
measuring impossible.to.measure things,
so we'll just have to see what the future brings.
Even if we cleverly measure effects down to 10⁻³⁵m,
continuous spacetime is still a useful description of
all the things it is currently usefully describing,
just as it's still useful to describe a guitar string
as continuous.
If you're trolling, you got me.
I took you seriously.
If you're objecting in good faith,
I don't see what you're objecting to.
Perhaps you've heard of beta decay or muon physics,
or Aspect-type experiments, none of which agree.
If there was a Planck length end-of-infinite-divisbility,
then if there were straight lines and right angles,
the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by the diagonal,
would be ir-rational, so there would be neither metric nor norm,
or one of straight lines and right angles gone missing.
You know, Angstrom's are just about as many orders of
magnitude above as Planck's are below, ..., "atomic scale".
The "trans-Planckian", regime, is what it's called,
sub-atomic, all the way down to the scale of superstrings,
approximately twice as many orders of magnitude smaller
than atoms, as atoms are us.
Can we zoom in forever?
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-10 21:26:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Burns
Post by sobriquet
Either spacetime is continuous or it's not.
So far it seems things usually are not continuous
(stuff like energy and space can't be subdivided indefinitely).
So it seems reasonable to assume that
the concept of continuity is nonsense.
If spacetime is not continuous,
what basis do we have to the concept of continuity?
Referring to spacetime _sounds like_ physics,
but the rest of what you're saying doesn't match
my own experience with physics.
Baby physicists cut their teeth on
continuous vibrating strings.
And yet, we know that,
at smaller.than.atomic dimensions,
there are no continuous vibrating strings.
Continuous vibrating strings are useful descriptions for
actual guitar strings, actual Tacoma Narrows Bridges.
http://youtu.be/KRutAt0FlGA
Is spacetime _actually_ continuous?
We don't think so, because
our current best theories develop problems
at small enough scale.
We expect some so.far.unknown theory
to make itself felt somewhere around
distances = 1 in natural units,
that is, units in which c = G = ℏ = 1,
the Planck length 1.6×10⁻³⁵ meter
Well, can we zoom out forever? Zooming in forever, well not sure if that
is possible with our current state of the art of our understanding of
the universe.
Post by Jim Burns
That's far smaller than we can currently measure,
although physicists have a proud history of
measuring impossible.to.measure things,
so we'll just have to see what the future brings.
Even if we cleverly measure effects down to 10⁻³⁵m,
continuous spacetime is still a useful description of
all the things it is currently usefully describing,
just as it's still useful to describe a guitar string
as continuous.
If you're trolling, you got me.
I took you seriously.
If you're objecting in good faith,
I don't see what you're objecting to.
Moebius
2024-07-10 21:42:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Well, can we zoom out forever? Zooming in forever,
In the comtext of the real and/or complex numbers we can!

That's just the beauty of math! Isn't it?
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-10 21:44:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Well, can we zoom out forever? Zooming in forever,
In the comtext of the real and/or complex numbers we can!
That's just the beauty of math! Isn't it?
Yeah, I know we can zoom in forever in math for sure; fractals are neat
and fun all in one. No doubt. However, wrt the physical world... Can we
zoom in forever? Or for that matter, zoom out forever?
Moebius
2024-07-10 21:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Well, can we zoom out forever? Zooming in forever,
In the comtext of the real and/or complex numbers we can!
That's just the beauty of math! Isn't it?
Yeah, I know we can zoom in forever in math for sure; fractals are neat
and fun all in one. No doubt. However, wrt the physical world... Can we
zoom in forever?
Hint: I'm a trained physicist.

Still I'd say: "Who knows?" Reality MIGHT be "quantized" (or not).

But to be honest, "I give a shit about that".

Let's do math, not physics. Ok?
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Or for that matter, zoom out forever?
Who nows?! See above.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-10 22:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Well, can we zoom out forever? Zooming in forever,
In the comtext of the real and/or complex numbers we can!
That's just the beauty of math! Isn't it?
Yeah, I know we can zoom in forever in math for sure; fractals are
neat and fun all in one. No doubt. However, wrt the physical world...
Can we zoom in forever?
Hint: I'm a trained physicist.
Still I'd say: "Who knows?" Reality MIGHT be "quantized" (or not).
But to be honest, "I give a shit about that".
Let's do math, not physics. Ok?
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Or for that matter, zoom out forever?
Who nows?! See above.
Touche! Thanks for your patience with my questions. Your are a nice
person to converse with. Thanks.
Moebius
2024-07-10 22:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
[So] let's do math, not physics. Ok?
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Or for that matter, zoom out forever?
Who nows?! [...]
Touche! Thanks for your patience with my questions. Your are a nice
person to converse with. Thanks.
Actually, I'm a brutal (but honest) one (sorry abot that).

"He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Anyone with ears to hear should
listen and understand!"

:-P
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-10 22:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
[So] let's do math, not physics. Ok?
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Or for that matter, zoom out forever?
Who nows?! [...]
Touche! Thanks for your patience with my questions. Your are a nice
person to converse with. Thanks.
Actually, I'm a brutal (but honest) one (sorry abot that).
"He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Anyone with ears to hear should
listen and understand!"
:-P
Fair enough! Hey, at least you have not annihilated me to a point where
I have two assholes instead of one... You do have the ability for
patience. Thanks again.
Moebius
2024-07-10 22:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
[So] let's do math, not physics. Ok?
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Or for that matter, zoom out forever?
Who nows?! [...]
Touche! Thanks for your patience with my questions. Your are a nice
person to converse with. Thanks.
Actually, I'm a brutal (but honest) one (sorry abot that).
"He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Anyone with ears to hear
should listen and understand!"
:-P
Fair enough! Hey, at least you have not annihilated me to a point where
I have two assholes instead of one... You do have the ability for
patience. Thanks again.
lol. :-P
sobriquet
2024-07-10 22:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Well, can we zoom out forever? Zooming in forever,
In the comtext of the real and/or complex numbers we can!
That's just the beauty of math! Isn't it?
Yeah, I know we can zoom in forever in math for sure; fractals are neat
and fun all in one. No doubt. However, wrt the physical world... Can we
zoom in forever? Or for that matter, zoom out forever?
We might think we're zooming in forever.. but we're just stuck in a loop.

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/4mivqc0iht
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-10 22:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Well, can we zoom out forever? Zooming in forever,
In the comtext of the real and/or complex numbers we can!
That's just the beauty of math! Isn't it?
Yeah, I know we can zoom in forever in math for sure; fractals are
neat and fun all in one. No doubt. However, wrt the physical world...
Can we zoom in forever? Or for that matter, zoom out forever?
We might think we're zooming in forever.. but we're just stuck in a loop.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/4mivqc0iht
Now, that makes my brain want to bleed a little bit. We hit a "limit"
and loop back on it? Something akin to that?
sobriquet
2024-07-10 23:29:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Well, can we zoom out forever? Zooming in forever,
In the comtext of the real and/or complex numbers we can!
That's just the beauty of math! Isn't it?
Yeah, I know we can zoom in forever in math for sure; fractals are
neat and fun all in one. No doubt. However, wrt the physical world...
Can we zoom in forever? Or for that matter, zoom out forever?
We might think we're zooming in forever.. but we're just stuck in a loop.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/4mivqc0iht
Now, that makes my brain want to bleed a little bit. We hit a "limit"
and loop back on it? Something akin to that?
Computers have finite computational resources. So if you keep zooming in
(or out), you eventually run into these computational limitations (or
perhaps it just takes too long, but lets assume that science has solved
the issue of aging and you can keep living as long as you please).

A loop can give the impression of zooming in indefinitely, but you're
not really zooming in indefinitely in that case.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-11 00:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Well, can we zoom out forever? Zooming in forever,
In the comtext of the real and/or complex numbers we can!
That's just the beauty of math! Isn't it?
Yeah, I know we can zoom in forever in math for sure; fractals are
neat and fun all in one. No doubt. However, wrt the physical
world... Can we zoom in forever? Or for that matter, zoom out forever?
We might think we're zooming in forever.. but we're just stuck in a loop.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/4mivqc0iht
Now, that makes my brain want to bleed a little bit. We hit a "limit"
and loop back on it? Something akin to that?
Computers have finite computational resources. So if you keep zooming in
(or out), you eventually run into these computational limitations (or
perhaps it just takes too long, but lets assume that science has solved
the issue of aging and you can keep living as long as you please).
A loop can give the impression of zooming in indefinitely, but you're
not really zooming in indefinitely in that case.
I think I kind of see what you are getting at. Humm... We have got
pretty deep zooms with fractals. Humm... You seem to be saying
interpolate from a deep zoom A to a deep zoom B if B is close enough to
a limit where B can "run out of resources" on a computer? If the
closeness factor exceeds a certain threshold, we simply loop from A to
B? The viewer might not be able to notice this aspect wrt the fact that
we are looping and not zooming anymore, so to speak? Fractal experts
should be able to detect this. I think I would be able to. Fwiw, here is
a deepish zoom:



I do not notice any artificial looping things in there...

Also, be sure to check this one out:



So elegant! No artificial looping.
sobriquet
2024-07-11 01:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Well, can we zoom out forever? Zooming in forever,
In the comtext of the real and/or complex numbers we can!
That's just the beauty of math! Isn't it?
Yeah, I know we can zoom in forever in math for sure; fractals are
neat and fun all in one. No doubt. However, wrt the physical
world... Can we zoom in forever? Or for that matter, zoom out forever?
We might think we're zooming in forever.. but we're just stuck in a loop.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/4mivqc0iht
Now, that makes my brain want to bleed a little bit. We hit a "limit"
and loop back on it? Something akin to that?
Computers have finite computational resources. So if you keep zooming
in (or out), you eventually run into these computational limitations
(or perhaps it just takes too long, but lets assume that science has
solved the issue of aging and you can keep living as long as you please).
A loop can give the impression of zooming in indefinitely, but you're
not really zooming in indefinitely in that case.
I think I kind of see what you are getting at. Humm... We have got
pretty deep zooms with fractals. Humm... You seem to be saying
interpolate from a deep zoom A to a deep zoom B if B is close enough to
a limit where B can "run out of resources" on a computer? If the
closeness factor exceeds a certain threshold, we simply loop from A to
B? The viewer might not be able to notice this aspect wrt the fact that
we are looping and not zooming anymore, so to speak? Fractal experts
should be able to detect this. I think I would be able to. Fwiw, here is
http://youtu.be/Xjy_HSUujaw
Deep zoom is kind of relative compared to infinity.
10^9 iterations seems deep, but even 10^(googleplex^googleplex)
iterations is insignificantly small in comparison to infinity.

There are tricks to work with big numbers on computers, but that doesn't
mean that you magically can get beyond any limitations. If the numbers
get big/small enough, you run out of memory or you run out of time.
Infinite zoom would only work on a hypothetical computer that has
unlimited memory and unlimited time and those only exist in our imagination.
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
I do not notice any artificial looping things in there...
http://youtu.be/S530Vwa33G0
So elegant! No artificial looping.
sobriquet
2024-07-10 21:46:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Well, can we zoom out forever? Zooming in forever,
In the comtext of the real and/or complex numbers we can!
That's just the beauty of math! Isn't it?
In our imagination we can cook and eat ourselves. In practice, it
wouldn't really work out.
Moebius
2024-07-10 21:55:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
Post by Moebius
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Well, can we zoom out forever? Zooming in forever,
In the comtext of the real and/or complex numbers we can!
That's just the beauty of math! Isn't it?
In our imagination we can cook and eat ourselves. In practice, it
wouldn't really work out.
If you say so.

May I comment that it seems that you know nothing about mathematics (by
experience)?
Alan Mackenzie
2024-07-09 21:33:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the complex
plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as well
compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
By the axioms of set theory.
Post by sobriquet
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
There exists a Dedekind cut of the set of rational numbers which is
sqrt(2).
Post by sobriquet
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
No. There is no such analogy. The infinite decimal expansion is
entirely irrelevant.
Post by sobriquet
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
Not at all. You remind me of John Gabriel, who continually asserted the
non-existence of mathematical entities, without being able to say what he
meant by this non-existence. The real number sqrt(2) exists by the
axioms of set theory and real numbers.
Post by sobriquet
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, ....
You're several hundred years too late for that debate. The concept of
irrational numbers is fully formed, without known inconsistency.
Post by sobriquet
.... that means the concept of the number line is nonsense likewise and
we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
The number line isn't nonsense. You're in danger of aligning yourself
with this newsgroup's cranks, past and present.
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
sobriquet
2024-07-09 21:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the complex
plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as well
compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
By the axioms of set theory.
Post by sobriquet
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
There exists a Dedekind cut of the set of rational numbers which is
sqrt(2).
Post by sobriquet
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
No. There is no such analogy. The infinite decimal expansion is
entirely irrelevant.
Post by sobriquet
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
Not at all. You remind me of John Gabriel, who continually asserted the
non-existence of mathematical entities, without being able to say what he
meant by this non-existence. The real number sqrt(2) exists by the
axioms of set theory and real numbers.
Post by sobriquet
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, ....
You're several hundred years too late for that debate. The concept of
irrational numbers is fully formed, without known inconsistency.
Post by sobriquet
.... that means the concept of the number line is nonsense likewise and
we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
The number line isn't nonsense. You're in danger of aligning yourself
with this newsgroup's cranks, past and present.
So basically what you're saying is that reality is irrelevant with
respect to the concepts in the mathematical realm?
Can we really expect a concept of continuity to exist in the
mathematical realm even if it turns out that we find solid evidence for
the claim that everything in the empirical realm (energy, matter, time,
space, information) turns out to be discrete?

Are you saying N J Wildberger is a crank?


I'm not a mathematician myself, but I'm interested in science and math
and the arguments given by N J Wildberger seem reasonable.
Moebius
2024-07-09 22:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
So basically what you're saying is that reality is irrelevant with
respect to the concepts in the mathematical realm?
I would't say "irrelevant". But let's not open that can of wurms. :-P
Post by sobriquet
Can we really expect a concept of continuity to exist in the
mathematical realm even if it turns out that we find solid evidence for
the claim that everything in the empirical realm (energy, matter, time,
space, information) turns out to be discrete?
Yes. After all this /concept/ exists in math and it DOES work (->Analysis).

Actually, it's rather helpful in physics (even if it only might just be
an "approximation".)
Post by sobriquet
Are you saying N J Wildberger is a crank?
Yes. (Though he is a quite capable mathematian too _IN HIS FIELD_!)
Post by sobriquet
I'm not a mathematician myself, but I'm interested in science and math
and the arguments given by N J Wildberger seem reasonable.
Well, if you say so.
Alan Mackenzie
2024-07-09 22:20:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same
dimension? It seems that instead of comparing the real number line
to the complex plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you
might as well compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical,
because a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0
units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
By the axioms of set theory.
Post by sobriquet
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
There exists a Dedekind cut of the set of rational numbers which is
sqrt(2).
Post by sobriquet
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
No. There is no such analogy. The infinite decimal expansion is
entirely irrelevant.
Post by sobriquet
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
Not at all. You remind me of John Gabriel, who continually asserted the
non-existence of mathematical entities, without being able to say what he
meant by this non-existence. The real number sqrt(2) exists by the
axioms of set theory and real numbers.
Post by sobriquet
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, ....
You're several hundred years too late for that debate. The concept of
irrational numbers is fully formed, without known inconsistency.
Post by sobriquet
.... that means the concept of the number line is nonsense likewise and
we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
The number line isn't nonsense. You're in danger of aligning yourself
with this newsgroup's cranks, past and present.
So basically what you're saying is that reality is irrelevant with
respect to the concepts in the mathematical realm?
The concepts in the mathematical realm are an integral part of reality.
Post by sobriquet
Can we really expect a concept of continuity to exist in the
mathematical realm even if it turns out that we find solid evidence for
the claim that everything in the empirical realm (energy, matter, time,
space, information) turns out to be discrete?
Yes. Just as we have 2 + 2 = 4 (in the abstract) we have continuity
(again, in the abstract). There's a well developed theory of continuity
lacking any inconsistency, so far as people are aware.
Post by sobriquet
Are you saying N J Wildberger is a crank?
http://youtu.be/jlnBo3APRlU
No, I'm not familiar with the said lady/gentleman. I don't have access
to youtube.
Post by sobriquet
I'm not a mathematician myself, but I'm interested in science and math
and the arguments given by N J Wildberger seem reasonable.
OK, that's fair enough. I have a degree in maths, although I'm not
otherwise a mathematician. Sometimes it needs to be said that the
mathematical basics are firmly established as being true, and are not at
all a matter of opinion. Just like Newton's laws of motion or the
roundness of the Earth or the Theory of Special Relativity are no longer
matters of opinion.
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
sobriquet
2024-07-09 23:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by sobriquet
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same
dimension? It seems that instead of comparing the real number line
to the complex plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you
might as well compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical,
because a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0
units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
By the axioms of set theory.
Post by sobriquet
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
There exists a Dedekind cut of the set of rational numbers which is
sqrt(2).
Post by sobriquet
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
No. There is no such analogy. The infinite decimal expansion is
entirely irrelevant.
Post by sobriquet
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
Not at all. You remind me of John Gabriel, who continually asserted the
non-existence of mathematical entities, without being able to say what he
meant by this non-existence. The real number sqrt(2) exists by the
axioms of set theory and real numbers.
Post by sobriquet
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, ....
You're several hundred years too late for that debate. The concept of
irrational numbers is fully formed, without known inconsistency.
Post by sobriquet
.... that means the concept of the number line is nonsense likewise and
we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
The number line isn't nonsense. You're in danger of aligning yourself
with this newsgroup's cranks, past and present.
So basically what you're saying is that reality is irrelevant with
respect to the concepts in the mathematical realm?
The concepts in the mathematical realm are an integral part of reality.
Post by sobriquet
Can we really expect a concept of continuity to exist in the
mathematical realm even if it turns out that we find solid evidence for
the claim that everything in the empirical realm (energy, matter, time,
space, information) turns out to be discrete?
Yes. Just as we have 2 + 2 = 4 (in the abstract) we have continuity
(again, in the abstract). There's a well developed theory of continuity
lacking any inconsistency, so far as people are aware.
Post by sobriquet
Are you saying N J Wildberger is a crank?
http://youtu.be/jlnBo3APRlU
No, I'm not familiar with the said lady/gentleman. I don't have access
to youtube.
Post by sobriquet
I'm not a mathematician myself, but I'm interested in science and math
and the arguments given by N J Wildberger seem reasonable.
OK, that's fair enough. I have a degree in maths, although I'm not
otherwise a mathematician. Sometimes it needs to be said that the
mathematical basics are firmly established as being true, and are not at
all a matter of opinion. Just like Newton's laws of motion or the
roundness of the Earth or the Theory of Special Relativity are no longer
matters of opinion.
Except, not really, since science doesn't yield certainty, only
preliminary conclusions that are the best way to account for
observations so far.
We have also uncovered observations about 'reality' that kind of subvert
our most basic logical assumptions (like the law of the excluded middle
or the pigeon hole principle). For instance in the way that particles
can exist in two places simultaneously in the double slit experiment as
an additional possibility besides the intuitive two possible ways for a
single particle to traverse a barrier with two holes when we detect
which way it went through the barrier.
So our understanding of reality is far from established on a solid
conceptual basis.

Math provides the conceptual underpinnings of science and I think AI
might soon debug that mathematical framework to come up with a more
unified conceptual framework to distinguish between reality and
fantasy.
WM
2024-07-10 16:28:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Sometimes it needs to be said that the
mathematical basics are firmly established as being true, and are not at
all a matter of opinion.
One of them is this ∀n ∈ ℕ: 1/n - 1/(n+1) > 0 (*).
The Number of UnitFractions between 0 and x can only increase by 1 at
every x.
Between 0 and 0 it is 0. Hence there must be an x where the Number of
UnitFractions between 0 and x is 1.
Hence either (*) is wrong or Peano.

Regards, WM
Moebius
2024-07-10 16:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Sometimes it needs to be said that the
mathematical basics are firmly established as being true,
and are not at all a matter of opinion.
One of them is this ∀n ∈ ℕ: 1/n - 1/(n+1) > 0.
Yeeeeees.
The Number of UnitFractions between 0 and x can only increase by 1 at
every x.
No, "the number of unit fractions between 0 and x" is aleph_0 for each
and every x > 0 (and 0 at 0). There is no increase, but a jump "at" 0.
Meaning: NUF(0) = 0 and NUF(x) = aleph_0 for all x e IR, x > 0.
[...] Hence there must be <bla>
Ex falso quodlibet, Du Depp!
WM
2024-07-10 16:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Sometimes it needs to be said that the
mathematical basics are firmly established as being true,
and are not at all a matter of opinion.
One of them is this ∀n ∈ ℕ: 1/n - 1/(n+1) > 0.
Yeeeeees.
The Number of UnitFractions between 0 and x can only increase by 1 at
every x.
No,
Yes. It can increase from 0 only to 1 because the next unit fraction
follwos only at a later x.

Regards, WM
Moebius
2024-07-10 21:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Sometimes it needs to be said that the
mathematical basics are firmly established as being true, and are
not at all a matter of opinion.
One of them is this ∀n ∈ ℕ: 1/n - 1/(n+1) > 0.
Yeeeeees.
The Number of UnitFractions between 0 and x can only increase by 1 at
every x.
No,
Yes.
No. :-)
It can increase from 0 only to 1 because <bla>
Mückenheim, there is NO x e IR, x > 0 such that NFU(x) = 1, Du Depp.

Hint: "the number of unit fractions between 0 and x" is aleph_0 for each
and every x > 0 (and 0 at 0). There is no increase, but a jump "at" 0.
Meaning: NUF(0) = 0 and NUF(x) = aleph_0 for all x e IR, x > 0.

Bitte geh doch endlich mal zu Psychiater!
Moebius
2024-07-10 16:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Sometimes it needs to be said that the
mathematical basics are firmly established as being true, and are not
at all a matter of opinion.
One of them is this ∀n ∈ ℕ: 1/n - 1/(n+1) > 0.
Yeeeeees.
Here's another one:

A x e IR, x > 0: E^ℵo u e {1/n : n e IN}: u <= x

In other words, A x e IR, x > 0: NUF(x) = ℵo.

Hint: If x e IR, x > 0 then there's a natural number n which is larger
than 1/x (by the archimedean property of the reals). Let n_0 the
smallest such number. Then we have: x > 1/n_0 and hence, of course, x >
1/n_0 > 1/(n_0+1) > 1/(n_0+2) > ... ad infinitum.
FromTheRafters
2024-07-09 22:43:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the complex
plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as well
compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
By the axioms of set theory.
Post by sobriquet
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
There exists a Dedekind cut of the set of rational numbers which is
sqrt(2).
Post by sobriquet
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
No. There is no such analogy. The infinite decimal expansion is
entirely irrelevant.
Post by sobriquet
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
Not at all. You remind me of John Gabriel, who continually asserted the
non-existence of mathematical entities, without being able to say what he
meant by this non-existence. The real number sqrt(2) exists by the
axioms of set theory and real numbers.
Post by sobriquet
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, ....
You're several hundred years too late for that debate. The concept of
irrational numbers is fully formed, without known inconsistency.
Post by sobriquet
.... that means the concept of the number line is nonsense likewise and
we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
The number line isn't nonsense. You're in danger of aligning yourself
with this newsgroup's cranks, past and present.
So basically what you're saying is that reality is irrelevant with respect to
the concepts in the mathematical realm?
Can we really expect a concept of continuity to exist in the mathematical
realm even if it turns out that we find solid evidence for the claim that
everything in the empirical realm (energy, matter, time, space, information)
turns out to be discrete?
Are you saying N J Wildberger is a crank?
http://youtu.be/jlnBo3APRlU
I'm not a mathematician myself, but I'm interested in science and math
and the arguments given by N J Wildberger seem reasonable.
One should keep in mind that we are not building reality from
mathematical objects.
sobriquet
2024-07-09 23:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by FromTheRafters
Post by sobriquet
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the complex
plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as well
compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
By the axioms of set theory.
Post by sobriquet
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
There exists a Dedekind cut of the set of rational numbers which is
sqrt(2).
Post by sobriquet
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
No.  There is no such analogy.  The infinite decimal expansion is
entirely irrelevant.
Post by sobriquet
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
Not at all.  You remind me of John Gabriel, who continually asserted the
non-existence of mathematical entities, without being able to say what he
meant by this non-existence.  The real number sqrt(2) exists by the
axioms of set theory and real numbers.
Post by sobriquet
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, ....
You're several hundred years too late for that debate.  The concept of
irrational numbers is fully formed, without known inconsistency.
Post by sobriquet
.... that means the concept of the number line is nonsense likewise and
we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
The number line isn't nonsense.  You're in danger of aligning yourself
with this newsgroup's cranks, past and present.
So basically what you're saying is that reality is irrelevant with
respect to the concepts in the mathematical realm?
Can we really expect a concept of continuity to exist in the
mathematical realm even if it turns out that we find solid evidence
for the claim that everything in the empirical realm (energy, matter,
time, space, information) turns out to be discrete?
Are you saying N J Wildberger is a crank?
http://youtu.be/jlnBo3APRlU
I'm not a mathematician myself, but I'm interested in science and math
and the arguments given by N J Wildberger seem reasonable.
One should keep in mind that we are not building reality from
mathematical objects.
Reality is the basis for our abstractions (concepts). We have to fit the
concepts to the observations.

For instance we could have a naive concept of heat as a kind of
substance that might account for some initial observations, but as we
observe a wider variety of situations, it might become evident that
there are other ways to conceptualize temperature (as vibratory motion
on a molecular scale) that are more suitable to account for our
observations.
Ross Finlayson
2024-07-10 04:18:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by FromTheRafters
Post by sobriquet
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the complex
plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as well
compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
By the axioms of set theory.
Post by sobriquet
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
There exists a Dedekind cut of the set of rational numbers which is
sqrt(2).
Post by sobriquet
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
No. There is no such analogy. The infinite decimal expansion is
entirely irrelevant.
Post by sobriquet
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
Not at all. You remind me of John Gabriel, who continually asserted the
non-existence of mathematical entities, without being able to say what he
meant by this non-existence. The real number sqrt(2) exists by the
axioms of set theory and real numbers.
Post by sobriquet
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, ....
You're several hundred years too late for that debate. The concept of
irrational numbers is fully formed, without known inconsistency.
Post by sobriquet
.... that means the concept of the number line is nonsense likewise and
we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
The number line isn't nonsense. You're in danger of aligning yourself
with this newsgroup's cranks, past and present.
So basically what you're saying is that reality is irrelevant with
respect to the concepts in the mathematical realm?
Can we really expect a concept of continuity to exist in the
mathematical realm even if it turns out that we find solid evidence
for the claim that everything in the empirical realm (energy, matter,
time, space, information) turns out to be discrete?
Are you saying N J Wildberger is a crank?
http://youtu.be/jlnBo3APRlU
I'm not a mathematician myself, but I'm interested in science and math
and the arguments given by N J Wildberger seem reasonable.
One should keep in mind that we are not building reality from
mathematical objects.
Isn't Wilberger just a sort of retro-finitist?

He seems plenty genial in his public persona,
I don't recall anything particularly profound
or enlightening.

There is though that retro-finitism is back-sliding
of the un-mathematically-conscientious sort.


Mathematics is ubiquitously successul in physics,
it's a mathematical physics and almost entirely
a mathematical physics, including the empirical,
at least fundamental physics.

Anything that doesn't help achieve continuum mechanics
after quantum mechanics, isn't much relevant to physics
and isn't much expansive to mathematics.


There are lots of measures of size among mathematical
objects, it's pretty much the notion of quantity at
all. Numbers have at least several relevant definitions,
including as of about sets of them and their subsets
in their place in the integer lattice.

Is there a different between retro-finitist and ultra-finitist?
Yeah, ultra-finitism is just a branch of field of mathematics,
retro-finitism is a hole in the sand where ostriches hide.
FromTheRafters
2024-07-10 10:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Finlayson
Post by FromTheRafters
Post by sobriquet
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the complex
plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as well
compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
By the axioms of set theory.
Post by sobriquet
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
There exists a Dedekind cut of the set of rational numbers which is
sqrt(2).
Post by sobriquet
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
No. There is no such analogy. The infinite decimal expansion is
entirely irrelevant.
Post by sobriquet
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
Not at all. You remind me of John Gabriel, who continually asserted the
non-existence of mathematical entities, without being able to say what he
meant by this non-existence. The real number sqrt(2) exists by the
axioms of set theory and real numbers.
Post by sobriquet
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, ....
You're several hundred years too late for that debate. The concept of
irrational numbers is fully formed, without known inconsistency.
Post by sobriquet
.... that means the concept of the number line is nonsense likewise and
we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
The number line isn't nonsense. You're in danger of aligning yourself
with this newsgroup's cranks, past and present.
So basically what you're saying is that reality is irrelevant with
respect to the concepts in the mathematical realm?
Can we really expect a concept of continuity to exist in the
mathematical realm even if it turns out that we find solid evidence
for the claim that everything in the empirical realm (energy, matter,
time, space, information) turns out to be discrete?
Are you saying N J Wildberger is a crank?
http://youtu.be/jlnBo3APRlU
I'm not a mathematician myself, but I'm interested in science and math
and the arguments given by N J Wildberger seem reasonable.
One should keep in mind that we are not building reality from
mathematical objects.
Isn't Wilberger just a sort of retro-finitist?
I don't know, he seems to be, but I always give him credit for mostly
keeping his view from tainting his lessons. He's a good teacher IMO
even though I don't ascribe to that view myself.
Post by Ross Finlayson
He seems plenty genial in his public persona,
I don't recall anything particularly profound
or enlightening.
There is though that retro-finitism is back-sliding
of the un-mathematically-conscientious sort.
Mathematics is ubiquitously successul in physics,
it's a mathematical physics and almost entirely
a mathematical physics, including the empirical,
at least fundamental physics.
Anything that doesn't help achieve continuum mechanics
after quantum mechanics, isn't much relevant to physics
and isn't much expansive to mathematics.
There are lots of measures of size among mathematical
objects, it's pretty much the notion of quantity at
all. Numbers have at least several relevant definitions,
including as of about sets of them and their subsets
in their place in the integer lattice.
Is there a different between retro-finitist and ultra-finitist?
Yeah, ultra-finitism is just a branch of field of mathematics,
retro-finitism is a hole in the sand where ostriches hide.
Ross Finlayson
2024-07-10 19:53:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by FromTheRafters
Post by Ross Finlayson
Post by FromTheRafters
Post by sobriquet
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the complex
plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as well
compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
By the axioms of set theory.
Post by sobriquet
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
There exists a Dedekind cut of the set of rational numbers which is
sqrt(2).
Post by sobriquet
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
No. There is no such analogy. The infinite decimal expansion is
entirely irrelevant.
Post by sobriquet
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
Not at all. You remind me of John Gabriel, who continually asserted the
non-existence of mathematical entities, without being able to say what he
meant by this non-existence. The real number sqrt(2) exists by the
axioms of set theory and real numbers.
Post by sobriquet
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, ....
You're several hundred years too late for that debate. The concept of
irrational numbers is fully formed, without known inconsistency.
Post by sobriquet
.... that means the concept of the number line is nonsense likewise and
we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
The number line isn't nonsense. You're in danger of aligning yourself
with this newsgroup's cranks, past and present.
So basically what you're saying is that reality is irrelevant with
respect to the concepts in the mathematical realm?
Can we really expect a concept of continuity to exist in the
mathematical realm even if it turns out that we find solid evidence
for the claim that everything in the empirical realm (energy, matter,
time, space, information) turns out to be discrete?
Are you saying N J Wildberger is a crank?
http://youtu.be/jlnBo3APRlU
I'm not a mathematician myself, but I'm interested in science and math
and the arguments given by N J Wildberger seem reasonable.
One should keep in mind that we are not building reality from
mathematical objects.
Isn't Wilberger just a sort of retro-finitist?
I don't know, he seems to be, but I always give him credit for mostly
keeping his view from tainting his lessons. He's a good teacher IMO even
though I don't ascribe to that view myself.
Post by Ross Finlayson
He seems plenty genial in his public persona,
I don't recall anything particularly profound
or enlightening.
There is though that retro-finitism is back-sliding
of the un-mathematically-conscientious sort.
Mathematics is ubiquitously successul in physics,
it's a mathematical physics and almost entirely
a mathematical physics, including the empirical,
at least fundamental physics.
Anything that doesn't help achieve continuum mechanics
after quantum mechanics, isn't much relevant to physics
and isn't much expansive to mathematics.
There are lots of measures of size among mathematical
objects, it's pretty much the notion of quantity at
all. Numbers have at least several relevant definitions,
including as of about sets of them and their subsets
in their place in the integer lattice.
Is there a different between retro-finitist and ultra-finitist?
Yeah, ultra-finitism is just a branch of field of mathematics,
retro-finitism is a hole in the sand where ostriches hide.
The other day or today I was browsing shelves and picked up
a copy of Rovelli's titled "Everything you thought about reality
is wrong" or something like that. So I leafed into it where
he said "infinity is gone" and along the lines that Planck length
was the bottom floor of the grain of space-time.

So, I returned it to the shelf. I won't be needing it.
Ross Finlayson
2024-07-10 19:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Finlayson
Post by FromTheRafters
Post by sobriquet
Post by Alan Mackenzie
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by sobriquet
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Are there "more" complex numbers than reals? It seems so, every real
has its y, or imaginary, component set to zero. Therefore for each
real there is an infinity of infinite embedding's for it wrt any real
with a non-zero y axis? Fair enough, or really dumb? A little stupid?
What do you think?
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It seems that instead of comparing the real number line to the complex
plane (or the Cartesian plane for that matter), you might as well
compare a unit of length to a square unit of area.
Numerically they might be the same, but they are not identical, because
a line has no area, so a unit of length 1 has an area of 0 units squared.
Are the complex numbers just as infinitely dense as the reals are? Or
are there somehow "more" of them wrt the density of the reals vs, say,
the rationals and/or the naturals? Is the "density" of an uncountable
infinity the same for every uncountable infinity? The density of the
complex numbers and the reals is the same?
How do you define sets exactly?
By the axioms of set theory.
Post by sobriquet
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
There exists a Dedekind cut of the set of rational numbers which is
sqrt(2).
Post by sobriquet
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
No. There is no such analogy. The infinite decimal expansion is
entirely irrelevant.
Post by sobriquet
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
Not at all. You remind me of John Gabriel, who continually asserted the
non-existence of mathematical entities, without being able to say what he
meant by this non-existence. The real number sqrt(2) exists by the
axioms of set theory and real numbers.
Post by sobriquet
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) turns out to be
nonsense, ....
You're several hundred years too late for that debate. The concept of
irrational numbers is fully formed, without known inconsistency.
Post by sobriquet
.... that means the concept of the number line is nonsense likewise and
we don't even need to consider higher dimensional nonsense.
The number line isn't nonsense. You're in danger of aligning yourself
with this newsgroup's cranks, past and present.
So basically what you're saying is that reality is irrelevant with
respect to the concepts in the mathematical realm?
Can we really expect a concept of continuity to exist in the
mathematical realm even if it turns out that we find solid evidence
for the claim that everything in the empirical realm (energy, matter,
time, space, information) turns out to be discrete?
Are you saying N J Wildberger is a crank?
http://youtu.be/jlnBo3APRlU
I'm not a mathematician myself, but I'm interested in science and math
and the arguments given by N J Wildberger seem reasonable.
One should keep in mind that we are not building reality from
mathematical objects.
Isn't Wilberger just a sort of retro-finitist?
He seems plenty genial in his public persona,
I don't recall anything particularly profound
or enlightening.
There is though that retro-finitism is back-sliding
of the un-mathematically-conscientious sort.
Mathematics is ubiquitously successul in physics,
it's a mathematical physics and almost entirely
a mathematical physics, including the empirical,
at least fundamental physics.
Anything that doesn't help achieve continuum mechanics
after quantum mechanics, isn't much relevant to physics
and isn't much expansive to mathematics.
There are lots of measures of size among mathematical
objects, it's pretty much the notion of quantity at
all. Numbers have at least several relevant definitions,
including as of about sets of them and their subsets
in their place in the integer lattice.
Is there a different between retro-finitist and ultra-finitist?
Yeah, ultra-finitism is just a branch of field of mathematics,
retro-finitism is a hole in the sand where ostriches hide.
Sets are objects as elementary in a theory:
defined only and only defined by one relation, elt.

Functions among them are usually primitive as
subsets of the Cartesian product, for-each for-each (lhs, rhs).

Then cardinality is simply the matter of equivalence
relations of those under transitive extensional
indifference, called Cantor-Schroeder-Bernstein theorem.

In model theory, as descriptive set theory is, as soon
as features of structures of objects are introduced
that introduce further regularities and modularities,
there are defined and unambiguous other notions than
the cardinality, "count", or "size".

Pretty much according to function theory and topology,
geometry.
Moebius
2024-07-09 22:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
How do you define sets exactly?
Actually, we don't _define_ the concept of /set/ by a "proper definition".
Post by sobriquet
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
Well, rather a sequence (which is a certain kind of set in the context
of set theory):

(1, 1.4, 1.41, 1.414, ...)
Post by sobriquet
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
Yes. See above. This sequence (called an /infinite sequence/) has
infinitely many terms.
Post by sobriquet
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already rather
dubious.
Oh, really?

If you say so.

So in your "math" there is no /number/ x such that x^2 = 2.

Ok, if you can live with(out) that, fine.
Post by sobriquet
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
Yes, they could.
Post by sobriquet
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) [etc.]
Hint (1): You won't find numbers like sqrt(2) IN (PHYSICAL) REALITY.

Hint (2): You won't find numbers like 1, 2, 3 there neither/either (?).
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-07-10 21:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moebius
Post by sobriquet
How do you define sets exactly?
Actually, we don't _define_ the concept of /set/ by a "proper definition".
Post by sobriquet
Is there a specific set that corresponds to sqrt(2)?
Well, rather a sequence (which is a certain kind of set in the context
(1, 1.4, 1.41, 1.414, ...)
Post by sobriquet
Does this set have an infinite number of elements analogous to the
sqrt(2) having an infinite decimal expansion?
Yes. See above. This sequence (called an /infinite sequence/) has
infinitely many terms.
Post by sobriquet
It seems that the existence of something like sqrt(2) is already
rather dubious.
Oh, really?
If you say so.
So in your "math" there is no /number/ x such that x^2 = 2.
Ok, if you can live with(out) that, fine.
Post by sobriquet
In reality, things are finite and space and time might also be finite
(composed of atoms of space and time that can't be subdivided with
the parts retaining their original spatial and temporal properties).
Yes, they could.
Post by sobriquet
So if the concept of irrational numbers like sqrt(2) [etc.]
Hint (1): You won't find numbers like sqrt(2) IN (PHYSICAL) REALITY.
If we draw a unit square, sqrt 2 is in there by default, right? From the
unit square all other squares can be constructed.
Post by Moebius
Hint (2): You won't find numbers like 1, 2, 3 there neither/either (?).
Stefan Ram
2024-07-09 20:09:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by sobriquet
How can you compare them if they are not even in the same dimension?
It's not about comparing the elements in the sets, but just about
comparing the cardinality (size) of one set with the cardinality of
the other set. Therefore it is not a problem that we cannot compare
an element of the one set with an element of the other set.
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