Discussion:
Tetrahedron Ratio
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Patrick D. Rockwell
15 years ago
Permalink
If you have two Tetrahedrons, one smaller than the other,
and just small enough so that if you turned it up side down
and inscribed it into the larger one, it's vertices would touch
the center of each triangular face of the larger, what would
be the ratio of their volumes? Of their sides? Thanks in
advance.
achille
15 years ago
Permalink
Post by Patrick D. Rockwell
If you have two Tetrahedrons, one smaller than the other,
and just small enough so that if you turned it up side down
and inscribed it into the larger one, it's vertices would touch
the center of each triangular face of the larger, what would
be the ratio of their volumes? Of their sides? Thanks in
advance.
Let x1, x2, x3, x4 be the 4 vertices of the bigger tetrahedron,
the vertices of the smaller tetrahedron is given by:

y1 = (x2 + x3 + x4) /3.
y2 = (x1 + x3 + x4) /3.
y3 = (x1 + x2 + x4) /3.
y4 = (x1 + x2 + x3) /3.

let c = ( x1 + x2 + x3 + x4 )/3, we have

yi = c - ( xi/3 ) for i = 1..4,

ie. up to a translation by c and inversion, the smaller tetrahedron
is the bigger one scaled down by a factor of 3.
William Elliot
15 years ago
Permalink
Post by Patrick D. Rockwell
If you have two Tetrahedrons, one smaller than the other,
and just small enough so that if you turned it up side down
and inscribed it into the larger one, it's vertices would touch
the center of each triangular face of the larger, what would
be the ratio of their volumes? Of their sides? Thanks in
1/8, 1/2
jbriggs444
15 years ago
Permalink
Post by William Elliot
Post by Patrick D. Rockwell
If you have two Tetrahedrons, one smaller than the other,
and just small enough so that if you turned it up side down
and inscribed it into the larger one, it's vertices would touch
the center of each triangular face of the larger, what would
be the ratio of their volumes? Of their sides? Thanks in
1/8, 1/2
Consider triangle abc with centroid m.

Suppose that c is at height h with respect to line ab.
What is the height of m with respect to line ab?

c
|\
| \
| \
| m \
| \
| \
a------b

http://www.mathopenref.com/trianglecentroid.html
Chip Eastham
15 years ago
Permalink
Post by William Elliot
Post by Patrick D. Rockwell
If you have two Tetrahedrons, one smaller than the other,
and just small enough so that if you turned it up side down
and inscribed it into the larger one, it's vertices would touch
the center of each triangular face of the larger, what would
be the ratio of their volumes? Of their sides? Thanks in
1/8, 1/2
Hi, William:

See the very nice explanation by "achille"
ahead of you in this thread. Anyway "sides"
probably means faces in this context, not
edges, so we should have answers of the form
r^3 for volumes and r^2 for sides.

regards, chip
Robert
15 years ago
Permalink
...
which centre? which tetrahedron? for circumcentres the tetrahedron
with vertices 0, (1,0,0), (0,1,0), (0,0,1) will result in a smaller
tetrahedron with zero volume.
Chip Eastham
15 years ago
Permalink
...
Hi, Robert:

I'm unclear what you are asking. In the original
post of this thread, a method for inscribing one
tetrahedron inside another is described: the
smaller tetrahedron will have vertices centered
on the faces of the larger one. As achille showed,
the smaller tetrahedron is similar to the larger
one with (linear) ratio 1/3.

Using your four points as vertices of the larger
tetrahedron, I make the vertices of the smaller
tetrahedron to be (1/3,1/3,1/3), (0,1/3,1/3),
(1/3,0,1/3), and (1/3,1/3,0). As the larger
tetrahedron has volume 1/6, the smaller one
will have volume (1/6)*(1/27) = 1/162.

If the construction were repeated, a sequence
of tetrahedrons would be obtained which tend
to "zero volume" centered on the same point as
the original tetrahedron, (1/4,1/4,1/4).

Is that close to what you were asking?

regards, chip
JEMebius
15 years ago
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...
Nice problem, nice find!

(A) Equidecomposability problem: can the original tetrahedron be cut up into 27 congruent
tetrahedrons of 1/3 of the linear size of the original?

(B) Generalize these problems to N dimensions.

More difficult problem: what remains of all this in infinite-dimensional spaces? In
separable Hilbert space? In inseparable Hilbert space?


Johan E. Mebius
Jim Ferry
15 years ago
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...
In N dimensions, the transformation is a homothety with scaling factor
-1/N, so all k-dimensional measures scale by N^-k. E.g., in 4-d, the
hypervolume of the resulting simplex is 1/256 that of the original.
Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homothetic_transformation.

The general simplex will be decomposable into smaller simplices iff
the regular simplex can be so decomposed (assuming we're just talking
about decompositions in which all facets are parallel (or
antiparallel) to corresponding facets in the original simplex, in
which case all the little simplices would remain congruent under
affine transformations). However, a necessary condition for
decomposing the regular simplex is that the dihedral angle be 2*pi/m
for some integer m (which is the number of smaller simplices which
"wrap around" an interior (N-2)-facet). The dihedral angle is Arccos
(1/N) (cf. http://www.jstor.org/pss/3072403), yielding m = 2*pi/Arccos
(1/N). For N = 2, m = 6, so the triangle decomposition works. For N
= 3, m ~= 5.1043 (not an integer!), and for N > 3, we have 4 < m < 5
(again, not an integer). So equidecomposability is possible iff m =
2. This doesn't rule out decompositions of non-regular simplices in
which pieces are rotated, however (which is much harder to address),
rather than just translated and inverted.
Jim Ferry
15 years ago
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...
This problem does not generalize to infinite-dimensional space.
Consider the N-d regular simplex, which has N+1 vertices. To write
coordinates for this it is convenient to add an extra dimension:
instead of writing coordinates in R^N, we write them in the subspace
of R^(N+1) in which all coordinates sum to 1. The coordinates of the
regular simplex (with side length sqrt(2)) can then be taken as
(1,0,0,...,0), (0,1,0,...,0), ..., (0,0,0,...,1). The centroid is
(1,1,1,...,1)/(N+1). The infinite-dimensional regular simplex is well
defined. Including the interior, it is simply the set of points
(x,y,z,...) which (a) sum to 1, and (b) are all non-negative.

One might think that the smaller, inscribed simplex would degenerate
to the centroid of the original simplex, but it's worse than that.
There is no centroid to which to degenerate. If there were it would
be (0,0,0,...,0), but this point lies outside the space.
Chip Eastham
15 years ago
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...
Isn't the convex hull of these countably many points
limited to those with only finitely many nonzero
coordinates? (co-finitely zero)
Post by Jim Ferry
One might think that the smaller, inscribed simplex would degenerate
to the centroid of the original simplex, but it's worse than that.
There is no centroid to which to degenerate.  If there were it would
be (0,0,0,...,0), but this point lies outside the space.
To go back (forth?) to the equidecomposability
problems, we should be looking for a tetrahedron
(resp. N-dimensional simplex) which tiles space
(of the appropriate dimension), since if one of
these is equidecomposable into self-similar parts
of equal size, then turning the construction
around lets us construct a tiling of outwardly
expanding hierarchies of that simplex.

Eike Hertel showed that the tetrahedra which can
be dissected into m^3 congruent pieces by the
"standard construction" (dividing each edge into
m equal segments), each similar to the whole
(reptiles), are exactly the Hill tetrahedra of
the first type:

[Self-similar Simplices (2000)]
http://emis.impa.br/EMIS/journals/BAG/vol.41/no.2/b41h2her.pdf

and conjectured that the only tetrahedra which
are k-reptiles are these Hill tetrahedra.

I don't know if further progress has been made
on this conjecture or extensions to higher
dimensions.

regards, chip
Jim Ferry
15 years ago
Permalink
Post by Chip Eastham
Post by Jim Ferry
 The infinite-dimensional regular simplex is well
defined.  Including the interior, it is simply the set of points
(x,y,z,...) which (a) sum to 1, and (b) are all non-negative.
Isn't the convex hull of these countably many points
limited to those with only finitely many nonzero
coordinates?  (co-finitely zero)
Ah, yes. I hadn't realized that convex combinations in infinite
dimensions are only of finite subsets. (This not being merely a
convention, but rather a consequence of the general definition of the
convex hull of a set S being the intersection of all convex sets
containing S.)
spudnik
15 years ago
Permalink
what, standard construction?... if you do
as with the trigon, cutting the edges
parallel to the facets, you get tetrahedra & octahedra
... as is wellknown to every student of Bucky Fuller
(which could just be me .-)
Post by Chip Eastham
Eike Hertel showed that the tetrahedra which can
be dissected into m^3 congruent pieces by the
"standard construction" (dividing each edge into
m equal segments), each similar to the whole
(reptiles), are exactly the Hill tetrahedra of
[Self-similar Simplices (2000)]http://emis.impa.br/EMIS/journals/BAG/vol.41/no.2/b41h2her.pdf
thus:
was you champion of a name-dropping proof, or have you looked
at his avowedly nonstandard approach?

I can't even vouch for Smullyan's popular books,
althoughI did develop an alternative
to his method in the Sherlock Holmes one,
re chess.

--l'OEuvre!
http://wlym.com
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles_2009/Relativistic_Moon.pdf
Robert
15 years ago
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my questions were rhetorical.

i was pointing out that nowhere is the tetrahedron described as
regular. that also means the meaning of centre is ambiguous.
Robert
15 years ago
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also, in addition to my comment above, i gave an example to
demonstrate how achille's construction only applied to one special
case, the regular tetrahedron.

i'm sure two seconds looking at my example and you would have
understood this
Chip Eastham
15 years ago
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...
You changed the terms of the question from "center"
of a triangular face to circumcentre. I honestly
did not appreciate the purpose of your change when I
read it in its rhetorical form. Thanks for clearing
up my confusion.

But I worked through your example using achille's
construction and showed you that it does apply.
The terms of that construction speak for themselves,
treating "center" as the mean of vertices, aka
centroid, barycenter, and the intersection of
medians. Such an interpretation is justified by
the OP's remark that the small tetrahedron is
"turned ... up side down and inscribed ... into
the larger one."

regards, chip
achille
15 years ago
Permalink
...
Based on another post 'Broken Stick' posted by Patrick at
around the same time as this, regular tetrahedron is probably
what Patrick really need / care.

REF: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.math.recreational/browse_thread/thread/1f0610372903ae92/0563540675014e38#0563540675014e38
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