Heine or Goethe -- Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar.

[HenHanna]

(if there's a Great math (logician) joke, i'd surely be interested!)


Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein,
die Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der
zweite auch "Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"


------- how this starts with a Verb...
if this is found in a short famous poem
(by Heine, Goethe, ...) i'd surely be interested!


if this were in English....
the 2nd guy would most likely say [I don't know either.]




What is represented by this? OdOoOmO




A surly English overseer is standing at the entrance to a
construction site in London. It’s a filthy, wet day. He sees approaching
him a shabby figure, with clay pipe clenched in mouth and a battered
raincoat, and scowlingly thinks, Another effing Mick on the scrounge.
The Irishman shambles up to him and asks if there’s any casual job
going. “You don’t look to me,” says the supervisor, “as if you know the
difference between a girder and a joist.” “I do, too,” says the Irishman
indignantly. “The first of them wrote Faust and the second one wrote
Ulysses.”

[Helmut Richter]

Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein, die
Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der zweite auch
"Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
------- how this starts with a Verb...

In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
imperative):

Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"

Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.

The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
(Let G be a group.) Probably this wording tries to avoid a single letter at
the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
"Es sei G ...".

In addition to that, this inversion may denote a precondition in a
*subordinate* phrase, not only in math jargon. Instead of

Wenn du morgen zum Mittagessen kommst, können wir das besprechen.

you can as well say

Kommst du morgen zum Mittagessen, können wir das besprechen.

if this is found in a short famous poem
(by Heine, Goethe, ...) i'd surely be interested!

There is a well-known poem by Eichendorff starting with a verb:

Schläft ein Lied in allen Dingen,
die da träumen fort und fort,
und die Welt hebt an zu singen,
triffst du nur das Zauberwort.

It is not obvious whether it follows one of the two patterns above:
either "Es schläft ein Lied ..." or "Wenn ein Lied ...schläft".

See also
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wünschelrute_(Eichendorff)

[HenHanna]

Post by Helmut Richter

Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein, die
Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der zweite auch
"Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
------- how this starts with a Verb...

In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"
Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.
The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
(Let G be a group.) Probably this wording tries to avoid a single letter at
the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
"Es sei G ...".
In addition to that, this inversion may denote a precondition in a
*subordinate* phrase, not only in math jargon. Instead of
Wenn du morgen zum Mittagessen kommst, können wir das besprechen.
you can as well say
Kommst du morgen zum Mittagessen, können wir das besprechen.

if this is found in a short famous poem
(by Heine, Goethe, ...) i'd surely be interested!

Schläft ein Lied in allen Dingen,
die da träumen fort und fort,
und die Welt hebt an zu singen,
triffst du nur das Zauberwort.
either "Es schläft ein Lied ..." or "Wenn ein Lied ...schläft".
See also
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wünschelrute_(Eichendorff)

thank you... i'll write some comments soon.


-- Sentence-initial Verb (in a German joke) --

------ Anastrophe has a similar suspension effect.


Quintilian (VIII.vi.65) offers an orthodox Latin example, in which
[duas] is stressed by its separation from [partes] :

animadverti, iudices, omnem accusatoris
orationem in duas divisam esse partes

("I noted, gentlemen, that the speech of the
accuser was divided into two parts").


James Joyce was so interested in the suspension effect
created by [in medias res]

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by HenHanna
Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein,
die
Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der zweite auch
"Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
------- how this starts with a Verb...

In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"
Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.

If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
thing get started?

Post by Helmut Richter
The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
(Let G be a group.) Probably this wording tries to avoid a single letter at
the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
"Es sei G ...".

..

I assume imperatives, like the "gehen wir" above, are too obvious to
mention.

Is another situation poetry and song lyrics, at least old-fashioned
ones? "Sah ein Knab ein Röslein stehn."

[Ross Clark]

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by HenHanna
Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein,
die
Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der zweite auch
"Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
------- how this starts with a Verb...

In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
  Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
  Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
  spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
  mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"
Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.

If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird.  How does such a
thing get started?

Post by Helmut Richter
The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
(Let G be a group.)  Probably this wording tries to avoid a single
letter at
the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
"Es sei G ...".

..
I assume imperatives, like the "gehen wir" above, are too obvious to
mention.
Is another situation poetry and song lyrics, at least old-fashioned
ones?  "Sah ein Knab ein Röslein stehn."

I thought of "Es ritten drei Reiter zum Tor hinaus", an old ballad that
Mahler set to music.
The word order must be "Germanic V2" -- a finite verb comes after the
first constituent in the clause, whatever it may be. If the first
constituent is the subject, you get normal subject-verb order; if it's
anything else, the verb ends up preceding the subject.
The first constituent can be this "Es" [it]. And then it can be left
out, leaving the inverted word order. That's as far as I can take it.

The V2 word order principle is quite clear in Old English.
The closest thing I think we have in modern English is with "there":

There came a wind like a bugle [Emily Dickinson]
Came a hot Friday... [Ronald Hugh Morrieson]

[Helmut Richter]

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by HenHanna
Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein,
die
Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der zweite auch
"Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
------- how this starts with a Verb...

In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
  Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
  Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
  spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
  mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"
Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.

If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird.  How does such a
thing get started?

Post by Helmut Richter
The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
(Let G be a group.)  Probably this wording tries to avoid a single
letter at
the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
"Es sei G ...".

..
I assume imperatives, like the "gehen wir" above, are too obvious to
mention.
Is another situation poetry and song lyrics, at least old-fashioned
ones?  "Sah ein Knab ein Röslein stehn."

I thought of "Es ritten drei Reiter zum Tor hinaus", an old ballad that Mahler
set to music.

Inserting a spurious "es" at the beginning of the sentence is fairly
frequent even in today’s language, more so in a formal register. The
purpose is mostly to remove a subject that has not previously been
mentioned from the first position which is typically reserved for the
topic of the preceding discourse.

The word order must be "Germanic V2" -- a finite verb comes after the first
constituent in the clause, whatever it may be. If the first constituent is the
subject, you get normal subject-verb order; if it's anything else, the verb
ends up preceding the subject.
The first constituent can be this "Es" [it]. And then it can be left out,
leaving the inverted word order. That's as far as I can take it.

Leaving it out is rather unusual as we see from the rare examples we found
up to now. The remaining sentence is more likely perceived as
ungrammatical rather than old-fashioned.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Helmut Richter
In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative. [...]
Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.

If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
thing get started?

In Old High German, the verb could be in initial, final, or second
position. However, verb position was influenced by pragmatics:
When a new discourse referent is introduced, the verb moves to the
tip of the sentence.[1]


[1] Paraphrased from Nübling et al.,
_Eine Einführung in die Prinzipien des Sprachwandels_
3rd ed., 2010

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Helmut Richter
In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative. [...]
Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.

If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
thing get started?

In Old High German, the verb could be in initial, final, or second
When a new discourse referent is introduced, the verb moves to the
tip of the sentence.[1]
[1] Paraphrased from Nübling et al.,
_Eine Einführung in die Prinzipien des Sprachwandels_
3rd ed., 2010

All right, that's a start, since jokes of this kind always introduce a
new discourse referent. So then I wonder why not other
situations where a new reference is introduced, and why the
inversion continues in jokes when you're talking about the same
two horses. But the answer might be just that strange things
happen.

[Helmut Richter]

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2024 15:48:51
Newsgroups: sci.lang, alt.usage.english, soc.culture.german, sci.math
Subject: Re: Heine or Goethe -- Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar.

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Helmut Richter
In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative. [...]
Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.

If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
thing get started?

In Old High German, the verb could be in initial, final, or second
When a new discourse referent is introduced, the verb moves to the
tip of the sentence.[1]
[1] Paraphrased from Nübling et al.,
_Eine Einführung in die Prinzipien des Sprachwandels_
3rd ed., 2010

All right, that's a start, since jokes of this kind always introduce a
new discourse referent. So then I wonder why not other
situations where a new reference is introduced, and why the
inversion continues in jokes when you're talking about the same
two horses. But the answer might be just that strange things
happen.
--
Jerry Friedman

[Helmut Richter]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by HenHanna
Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein,
die
Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der zweite auch
"Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
------- how this starts with a Verb...

In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"
Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.

If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
thing get started?

Post by Helmut Richter
The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
(Let G be a group.) Probably this wording tries to avoid a single letter at
the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
"Es sei G ...".

..
I assume imperatives, like the "gehen wir" above, are too obvious to
mention.

I did mention them in the first paragraph.

Post by jerryfriedman
Is another situation poetry and song lyrics, at least old-fashioned
ones? "Sah ein Knab ein Röslein stehn."

Indeed. This is another example from poetry, in addition to the one I
gave: "Schläft ein Lied in allen Dingen, ...".

So there may be more examples in poetry but it is hard to find more.

[Moebius]

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by HenHanna
Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein,
die
Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der zweite auch
"Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
------- how this starts with a Verb...

In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"
Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.

If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
thing get started?

Post by Helmut Richter
The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
(Let G be a group.) Probably this wording tries to avoid a single letter at
the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
"Es sei G ...".

..
I assume imperatives, like the "gehen wir" above, are too obvious to
mention.

I did mention them in the first paragraph.

Post by jerryfriedman
Is another situation poetry and song lyrics, at least old-fashioned
ones? "Sah ein Knab ein Röslein stehn."

Indeed. This is another example from poetry, in addition to the one I
gave: "Schläft ein Lied in allen Dingen, ...".
So there may be more examples in poetry but it is hard to find more.

From song lyrics: "Kommt ein Vogel geflogen"

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by HenHanna

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by HenHanna
Kommen drei Logiker in eine Bar. Der Kellner fragt: "Na, was darfs sein,
die
Herren? Drei Bier?" Sagt der erste Logiker "Ich weiß nicht", der

zweite

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by HenHanna
auch
"Ich weiß nicht" und der Dritte sagt "Ja"
------- how this starts with a Verb...

In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative. The word order is the same as that of
questions but the intonation is that of affirmative sentences.
Example (the inversion in the 1st, 3rd and 4th sentence is joke
syntax, the "gehen wir rein" is not but is normal 1st person plural
Spielen zwei Pferde Federball. Auf einmal wird es windig und der
Ball fliegt weg. Sagt das eine Pferd: "Komm, gehen wir rein und
spielen Tischtennis." Sagt das andere: "Spinnst du? Hast du schon
mal Pferde Tischtennis spielen sehen?"
Telling jokes without such inversion would be unidiomatic.

If you don't mind my saying so, that's weird. How does such a
thing get started?

Post by Helmut Richter
The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of

a

Post by Helmut Richter
precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."
(Let G be a group.) Probably this wording tries to avoid a single letter at
the beginning of the sentence. Normal grammar would be "G sei ..." or
"Es sei G ...".

..
I assume imperatives, like the "gehen wir" above, are too obvious to
mention.

I did mention them in the first paragraph.

..

Well, you mentioned one, though not the one immediately before it.
("Komm" in the horse joke is an imperative, right.) I should have
said that since you mentioned "gehen wir", the fact that imperatives
in all persons /typically/ appear first was too obvious to mention.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Helmut Richter
In German, jokes are typically told with inversion in all sentences
that belong to the narrative.
The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
precondition of a mathematical theorem. E.g.: "Sei G eine Gruppe."

I think that directly replicates Latin phrasing.

I quickly googled for mathematical proofs in Latin and peeked into
some of Euler's publications, where you can find sentence-initial
"sit ... / sint ...", used like this, i.e. the third person singular/
plural subjunctive of the "to be" verb.

Post by Helmut Richter
In addition to that, this inversion may denote a precondition in a
*subordinate* phrase, not only in math jargon. Instead of
Wenn du morgen zum Mittagessen kommst, können wir das besprechen.
you can as well say
Kommst du morgen zum Mittagessen, können wir das besprechen.

Inversion to mark conditional clauses also exists in limited form
in English, e.g.:
* Had I known ... (If I had known ...)
* Were I to leave ... (If I left ...)
* Should you choose ... (If you choose ...)

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Helmut Richter
The only other situation I know where a non-question main sentence starts
with the verb is "sei" (let be) at the beginning of the statement of a
precondition of a mathematical theorem.

Verb-initial sentences are actually common in colloquial German by
ellipsis: initial "das" (object or subject) is dropped.

Das weiß ich nicht. > Weiß ich nicht.
Das geht nicht. > Geht nicht.
Das mach ich. > Mach ich.
etc.

I'll leave it to the syntacticians to figure out whether that is
just a surface form and we need to pretend that the "das" is still
present in some way, or whether it is really omitted... Really,
how do syntacticians deals with ellipsis?